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flaps again



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 1st 08, 12:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Michael Ash
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 309
Default flaps again

In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?
Not flapless.
I had to.
I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)


Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?


Yeah it's there and I've marked it below. But that doesn't mean you have
to land with the gear up if the guy giving you the test tells you to.


Right, but part of the expectation of the test is to follow it through as
far as you can safely do so. When he pulls the power on you, you're not
expected to *actually* land in some guy's field, but at the same time you
don't smack his hand away from the throttle and keep going. I would expect
that a simulated landing gear failure would consist of going through
whatever checks are appropriate for that situation and making sure you
handle that end of things in a reasonable manner. Since stuck flaps can be
taken all the way to completion safely, there's no reason to stop early.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software
  #22  
Old January 1st 08, 01:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Michael Ash
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 309
Default flaps again

In rec.aviation.student Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?


When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)


Ooh, you're mean.

Seriously though, it seems to me that this is a better approach than
simply announcing the failure. It's much more realistic and teaches the
student to be adaptable when something doesn't work the way it should,
instead of just changing the tune to follow the instructor.

The big emergency us glider types just love to practice is low-altitude
tow rope breaks. Instructors have you practice those by pulling the
release knob on you with no advance warning. Makes a loud bang with the
treetops awfully close. First time scared and surprised me so much I
literally froze on the controls and probably would have died if I had been
alone. Second time was a piece of cake. If you don't surprise your
students in training then their first surprise is going to be a *real*
emergency, and that's no good, so I'm all for your style of doing things.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software
  #23  
Old January 1st 08, 01:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Michael Ash
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 309
Default flaps again

In rec.aviation.student B A R R Y wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?


My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

He announced the flap failure while asking for the ground control
frequency on 2 mile final to New Haven.

I told him I was too busy to pull out the AF/D, and would look up the
correct frequency after landing. This was the correct answer.


Cool, good to know I'm not totally off base. Those examiners are tricky
devils. Thanks for the story.

The rough equivalent in gliders is a no-spoiler landing, except that in
any decently-performing glider, trying to land without spoilers is like
trying to sink a body in the East River without concrete shoes: it just
won't go down. My examiner had me fly a pattern using slip instead of
spoilers until a point on short final where there was just no other way to
make a decent landing, at which point he let me open them and land.

I have done one landing with no spoilers (except when flaring, since I
didn't want to float forever) in an older glider, and even there it was
quite a challenge and took me two tries to get it right. I'm pretty sure
that if it happened for real I could survive the experience but it
wouldn't be pretty and might end up being expensive.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software
  #24  
Old January 1st 08, 03:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Roy Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 478
Default flaps again

In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

In rec.aviation.student Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?


When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)


Ooh, you're mean.

Seriously though, it seems to me that this is a better approach than
simply announcing the failure. It's much more realistic and teaches the
student to be adaptable when something doesn't work the way it should,
instead of just changing the tune to follow the instructor.


Exactly. It also teaches you to fly the damn airplane and not get
distracted by little ****. Just about to turn base is no time to be going
heads down in the cockpit or getting distracted.

Declare you're landing without flaps? Fine. Declare you're exiting the
pattern until you can sort this out? Fine. Give me a sharp poke in the
ribs to get me to move my foot? Well, it's not the response I was hoping
for, but it's not the worst you could do :-) Getting into an argument with
me at the expense of your traffic scan? Not fine.

The hardest part of dealing with any equipment failure is recognizing that
it's happened.
  #25  
Old January 1st 08, 03:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dave[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 142
Default flaps again

OK, so I am missing something..

In large , more complex aircraft, I can see the difficulty landing
without flaps.

But in a 172 or a Warrior?

......with sufficient runway, and in strong winds, I sometimes prefer
no flaps.

My Warrior POH indicates flaps are to be used as needed, no flap
landings are not indicated as requiring an emergency procedure...

In training aircraft?

Dave



On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:32:23 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittinglI Have to ask now.

y landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not
possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.



As my good ole' buddy Chris Patterakis (ex-Thunderbird lead and general
good guy) used to say, "We don't fly in a one cue world".
This simple statement should be a large sign stapled on the door of
every pilot's bedroom so they read it every day until it became a living
part of their flying mindset.
I honestly can't conceive of a situation in a light GA aircraft where a
pilot could attempt lowering the flaps and not know immediately if they
were in the equation. The cues available are just too many to ignore.
You have the obvious visual check, and if that isn't available, the
changes and/or lack of same in the aircraft's performance should become
immediately apparent to a "tuned in" pilot.

On the other hand, a flaps up landing should be part and parcel of every
pilot's training curriculum and should be a non event should the need
arise to make one.

The bottom line on this is that there should have been instant
recognition of the situation using any and all available cues and the
situation assessed and acted on by a deliberate action either to land
the airplane flaps up with all the expected behavior associated with
that decision, or, if not enough time to set up or enough romm to do
that, a go around should have been initiated and the problem
investigated out of the pattern.
Either way, this situation should have been handled in such a way that
at no time during the approach was the airplane flying the pilot and not
the other way around :-)


  #26  
Old January 1st 08, 03:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default flaps again

Dave wrote:
OK, so I am missing something..

In large , more complex aircraft, I can see the difficulty landing
without flaps.

But in a 172 or a Warrior?

.....with sufficient runway, and in strong winds, I sometimes prefer
no flaps.

My Warrior POH indicates flaps are to be used as needed, no flap
landings are not indicated as requiring an emergency procedure...

In training aircraft?

Dave



On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:32:23 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittinglI Have to ask now.

y landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not
possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.


As my good ole' buddy Chris Patterakis (ex-Thunderbird lead and general
good guy) used to say, "We don't fly in a one cue world".
This simple statement should be a large sign stapled on the door of
every pilot's bedroom so they read it every day until it became a living
part of their flying mindset.
I honestly can't conceive of a situation in a light GA aircraft where a
pilot could attempt lowering the flaps and not know immediately if they
were in the equation. The cues available are just too many to ignore.
You have the obvious visual check, and if that isn't available, the
changes and/or lack of same in the aircraft's performance should become
immediately apparent to a "tuned in" pilot.

On the other hand, a flaps up landing should be part and parcel of every
pilot's training curriculum and should be a non event should the need
arise to make one.

The bottom line on this is that there should have been instant
recognition of the situation using any and all available cues and the
situation assessed and acted on by a deliberate action either to land
the airplane flaps up with all the expected behavior associated with
that decision, or, if not enough time to set up or enough romm to do
that, a go around should have been initiated and the problem
investigated out of the pattern.
Either way, this situation should have been handled in such a way that
at no time during the approach was the airplane flying the pilot and not
the other way around :-)


No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no
flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a
no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the
student must be completely familiar with before solo.


--
Dudley Henriques
  #27  
Old January 1st 08, 04:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Roy Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 478
Default flaps again

In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:

No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no
flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a
no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the
student must be completely familiar with before solo.


The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an
emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend
and adjust his plan accordingly. And understand the performance
implications.
  #28  
Old January 1st 08, 06:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default flaps again

Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:

No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no
flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a
no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the
student must be completely familiar with before solo.


The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an
emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend
and adjust his plan accordingly. And understand the performance
implications.


Like many CFI's who came up during my period, (old people :-) I much
preferred to teach no flap landings to students as BOTH a possible
emergency AND an option that could be used by a good pilot who for a
viable and safe reason wanted to land long for a far end turnoff on an
exceptionally long runway for example.
Many of the airplanes we flew as trainers had no flaps; i.e. Cubs,
Colts, etc. You learned early on in these airplanes to fly the approach
properly and with no "devices" to help you control the landing speed.
These airplanes are still in use today and in many cases are priced low
enough that many students becoming aircraft owners for the first time
will end up purchasing an aircraft with no flaps. I personally know two
pilots who own a J3 and a Piper Colt; each have no flaps.

Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH
might define a no flap landing as an emergency. Others simply alter the
approach profile a bit. In the T38 Talon for example, (I use this as the
airplane is extremely high performance and landing cfg is critical for
the Talon) the procedure for a no flap landing is to add 15kts to the
normal landing speed...period! No big deal at all.

Landing a normal GA airplane with no flaps should not pose a good pilot
any problems at all, and training should reflect this.

The bottom line is that instructors should teach landings in a way that
defines every one of them as a unique experience dealing with a unique
and ever changing dynamic. No two landings that a pilot will make during
an entire career will ever be exactly the same. Each landing carries its
own individual fingerprint.
No flaps can be an emergency landing or it can simply be a pilot's
option. Either way, the pilot should be on top of it and have each
individual landing planned based on current conditions existing for any
given instant in time that pertain to THAT landing.


--
Dudley Henriques
  #29  
Old January 1st 08, 10:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Blueskies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 979
Default flaps again


"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?


My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!


  #30  
Old January 1st 08, 11:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default flaps again

Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!


Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

--
Dudley Henriques
 




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