flaps again

Roy Smith wrote:
Rich Ahrens wrote:
So then it was just a
matter of landing NORDO, no lights, no flaps, in the dark.

Man, you think it's tough landing with no lights in the dark, you should
try it during the day sometime. With the sun in your eyes, you can't even
tell if the lights are on or not.

Yeah, that would truly suck...

"Rich Ahrens" wrote in message et...

I had a complete electrical failure in a C177RG...


Same thing happened way back when while I was working on my CFII. The instructor was left seat and flying and I noticed
that the radios were dark. I wondered what he did, and then mentioned it. Fortunately for us it was day VFR, so we just
flew on in to the [airport traffic area] tower and watched for the light gun signals. Steady green and we landed. As we
rolled off the runway we went over an expansion joint that jostled the plane, and the power came back on. Turned out
after days of troubleshooting there was in intermittent contact in one of the electrical connectors...

What was the problem with your bird?

Blueskies wrote:
"Rich Ahrens" wrote in message et...
I had a complete electrical failure in a C177RG...


Same thing happened way back when while I was working on my CFII. The instructor was left seat and flying and I noticed
that the radios were dark. I wondered what he did, and then mentioned it. Fortunately for us it was day VFR, so we just
flew on in to the [airport traffic area] tower and watched for the light gun signals. Steady green and we landed. As we
rolled off the runway we went over an expansion joint that jostled the plane, and the power came back on. Turned out
after days of troubleshooting there was in intermittent contact in one of the electrical connectors...

What was the problem with your bird?

Failed voltage regulator, so the battery wasn't charging.

On Jan 2, 11:08 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in messagenews:i6uin3daep6btrf2u8503vftq61r8umb0r@4ax .com...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

Exactly!

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))


Only if the flaps extend :-)))

Cheers

WingFlaps wrote:
On Jan 2, 11:08 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in messagenews:i6uin3daep6btrf2u8503vftq61r8umb0r@4ax .com...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.
Exactly!
Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))


Only if the flaps extend :-)))

Cheers
That's true; a magnificent example of inverse application :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

On Jan 2, 11:51 am, Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:
On 1 Jan, 17:14, Dudley Henriques wrote:



Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:

No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another
procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no
flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a
no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as
required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over
the aspects of no flap landings with every student.
I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the
student must be completely familiar with before solo.

The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an
emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend
and adjust his plan accordingly. And understand the performance
implications.

Like many CFI's who came up during my period, (old people :-) I much
preferred to teach no flap landings to students as BOTH a possible
emergency AND an option that could be used by a good pilot who for a
viable and safe reason wanted to land long for a far end turnoff on an
exceptionally long runway for example.
Many of the airplanes we flew as trainers had no flaps; i.e. Cubs,
Colts, etc. You learned early on in these airplanes to fly the approach
properly and with no "devices" to help you control the landing speed.
These airplanes are still in use today and in many cases are priced low
enough that many students becoming aircraft owners for the first time
will end up purchasing an aircraft with no flaps. I personally know two
pilots who own a J3 and a Piper Colt; each have no flaps.

Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH
might define a no flap landing as an emergency. Others simply alter the
approach profile a bit. In the T38 Talon for example, (I use this as the
airplane is extremely high performance and landing cfg is critical for
the Talon) the procedure for a no flap landing is to add 15kts to the
normal landing speed...period! No big deal at all.

Landing a normal GA airplane with no flaps should not pose a good pilot
any problems at all, and training should reflect this.

The bottom line is that instructors should teach landings in a way that
defines every one of them as a unique experience dealing with a unique
and ever changing dynamic. No two landings that a pilot will make during
an entire career will ever be exactly the same. Each landing carries its
own individual fingerprint.
No flaps can be an emergency landing or it can simply be a pilot's
option. Either way, the pilot should be on top of it and have each
individual landing planned based on current conditions existing for any
given instant in time that pertain to THAT landing.

Hear hear.
I've often met pilots who use no flaps on landing in very gusty
conditions or stiff crosswinds. I've tried this and don't really see
the benifits. Like a lot of things it's probably mostly in the head. I
think the higher touchdown speeds invovlved and the resultant float
only prolong the agony.
Having said that, any pilot should be able to fly his airplane in any
reasonable configuration it might end up in and this should be taught
as a matter of course. I did some instruction in Cherokees(most of my
instruction was in Cubs) and found the flaps were confusing the issue
when the students were learning landings. I opted to do most of them
flapless and this porved quite productive. the problem was, none of
the other instructors were teaching this and it was off the page for
the school, so I kept it to a minimum.

In the 172 POH it says that minimum flap setting should be used
(consistemt with runway length) in strong crosswinds. I think control
surface authority is what is being sought here.

Cheers

On Jan 1, 8:35 pm, WingFlaps wrote:

In the 172 POH it says that minimum flap setting should be used
(consistemt with runway length) in strong crosswinds. I think control
surface authority is what is being sought here.

In a crosswind, the wind vector is larger at lower aircraft
speeds, so a higher landing speed reduces the relative wind angle and
makes the initial touchdown more controllable. The thing to remember
is that the flight isn't over until the airplane is tied down, so be
wide awake in the rollout and use all the controls to manage the
airplane. Like LOTS of aileron into the crosswind.

Dan

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:02:47 -0400, Dave
wrote:

OK, so I am missing something..

In large , more complex aircraft, I can see the difficulty landing
without flaps.

But in a 172 or a Warrior?

.....with sufficient runway, and in strong winds, I sometimes prefer
no flaps.

My Warrior POH indicates flaps are to be used as needed, no flap
landings are not indicated as requiring an emergency procedure...

In training aircraft?

Dave


I was thinking the same thing, in a PA28-140 anyway,was like a 50-50
with me




Daveb

I've often met pilots who use no flaps on landing in very gusty
conditions or stiff crosswinds. I've tried this and don't really see
the benifits. Like a lot of things it's probably mostly in the head. I
think the higher touchdown speeds invovlved and the resultant float
only prolong the agony.

Do large jets ever land without flaps for any reason? I have never
seen big jets landing without flaps.. so I have often wondered if it
is something not recommended.

"Matt Whiting" wrote

That is amazing. The only emergency associated with flaps is asymmetric
deployment! :-)

So perhaps that is what he was shooting for. An asymmetrical deployment,
followed by a no flap landing.

Well, maybe? g
--
Jim in NC