flaps again

On 2008-01-03 09:13:40 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.
The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a
big hurry :-))

One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap
was folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane
previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he
had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and
then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in
flight. It appears that the student made three more landings after the
flap folded up. For the record, he was not my student.

Kind of makes you wonder who's teaching people to fly in such a way
that the end result would be a student who hears something unusual in
his airplane and takes off without knowing or obviously caring what it
is.
Unbelievable!! :-))

Man, you would think he would at least have noticed something different
about the way the airplane flew!

However, if it makes you feel better, I remember his instructor having
a very loooong chat with him. Turned out the flaps had probably jumped
the track when he lowered them at 120 knots.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-03 09:13:40 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques
said:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.
The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot
in a big hurry :-))

One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap
was folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane
previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that
he had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes
and then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in
flight. It appears that the student made three more landings after
the flap folded up. For the record, he was not my student.

Kind of makes you wonder who's teaching people to fly in such a way
that the end result would be a student who hears something unusual in
his airplane and takes off without knowing or obviously caring what it
is.
Unbelievable!! :-))

Man, you would think he would at least have noticed something different
about the way the airplane flew!

However, if it makes you feel better, I remember his instructor having a
very loooong chat with him. Turned out the flaps had probably jumped the
track when he lowered them at 120 knots.

Sounds like a lesson was in there somewhere for somebody.

Depending on the exact circumstances, I think I might have wanted a few
words with the instructor as well. This kind of judgment found post
incident in a student is cause for at least some concern in that direction.


--
Dudley Henriques

On 2008-01-03 17:46:37 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-03 09:13:40 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.
The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a
big hurry :-))

One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap
was folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane
previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he
had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and
then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in
flight. It appears that the student made three more landings after the
flap folded up. For the record, he was not my student.

Kind of makes you wonder who's teaching people to fly in such a way
that the end result would be a student who hears something unusual in
his airplane and takes off without knowing or obviously caring what it
is.
Unbelievable!! :-))

Man, you would think he would at least have noticed something different
about the way the airplane flew!

However, if it makes you feel better, I remember his instructor having
a very loooong chat with him. Turned out the flaps had probably jumped
the track when he lowered them at 120 knots.

Sounds like a lesson was in there somewhere for somebody.

Depending on the exact circumstances, I think I might have wanted a few
words with the instructor as well. This kind of judgment found post
incident in a student is cause for at least some concern in that
direction.

I have to agree. Unfortunately, I was a student myself at the time
(different instructor). Now those instructors are flying for the
airlines somewhere... Well, perhaps they have gained more wisdom with
maturity. Probably the kid who busted the flaps is flying for the
airlines somewhere.

Well, I don't want to get into criticizing other flight instructors. I
do that too often as it is, and it is healthy neither for me nor for
the profession.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

C J Campbell wrote:


Well, I don't want to get into criticizing other flight instructors. I
do that too often as it is, and it is healthy neither for me nor for the
profession.

We'll have to get together some time and hash this one over a bit :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

On 3 Jan, 09:16, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Jan 2, 9:15 pm, wrote:

On Jan 2, 4:35 pm, Michael wrote:

Which brings us to the one (and only) difference between landing flaps
up and gear up. *Gear up is expensive, every time. *Flaps up is
actually more likely to be fatal (as in, you get too slow in a turn)
but most of the time it costs nothing at all except some extra runway,
which is free. *That's it.

* * * * *Unless you are landing on a minimal runway, as we often do
out here in the Canadian west. An inadvertent flaps-up landing can get
really messy at the far end, depending on the obstacles that might be
there.

Not really, you just need to learn how to land better,
making use of flare and ground effect.
Landing with zero flaps, needs a tricky extended flare
and once the tires are on the runway, keep the nose up,
with pitch control to the elevator, that way the entire
main wing operates as an air brake.
Be very gentle on wheel braking control because that
will lower the nose, and you want the nose as high
as possible, while rolling.

Once the nose falls, it's hard to get it up because of
the relation of the CM to the wheel contact point on
the ground. At a high AOA, the CM is pretty close
to the vertical location of the wheel contact point,
and the elevator is effective.

The key is to understand the wheel contact point in
relation to the CM. Most A/C with tricycle gear are
designed to keep the weight on the mains and keep
the forward lightly loaded.
Ken



Good grief.


Bertie