Why airplanes fly

wrote:
Yes there is. I've experimented with it and found it useless if the
objective sought is realistic aircraft control pressure feedback.
What it does do is create some "effects" for the user that are intended
to produce a more realistic experience, but in my opinion, the
technology falls way short of this goal.

In fact, my opinion of force feedback is so negative, I personally don't
use it.

--
Dudley Henriques-

That's my experience too. At first I really wanted force feedback.
However it's so inaccurate, and the motors make the thing all twitchy,
that only bad habits come of it.

Some company (not CH) makes joysticks and a flight yoke that don't use
potentiometers. They work better, apparently. Someone on the sim forum
could probably lead you to a controller that behaves well.


For the work I do on the sim program both for Microsoft and developers I
use strictly CH Products. I've found them to be quite dependable and I
recommend them highly.
DH

--
Dudley Henriques

wrote in
:

WEll, tomorrow I'm going to be in a significantly more sophisticated
syste
m *
than that for about four hours of sweat inducing BS and even they
don;'t feel right. At least with no feel you;re not getting the
notion that you'r
e
learning anything by feel.

Bertie

What kind of hoops do they make you jump through on those things?

What are they trying to assess? Systems knowledge? Procedures? CRM?



All of the above, really. We'll do a normal cockpit check and briefing. A
few ILS's with both engines and singe engine. Some V1 cuts ( engine
failures at or around V1 with at least one abandoned takeoff) Some system
failures. I think some electric system failure are on the agenda this time.
Weather problems. Circle to land approaches. The engine failures might
include some oddball things which they'll have us look at. for instance a
masive fuel leak brought on by the failure damage, or maybe just a wind-
down that requires an inflight start.
They're big on SOPs. Getting the mouth music right and knowing the numbers.


Bertie

Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Yes. I've trid it and the home sim feedback systems are a joke. Even
sophisticated sims aren't great this way and I still can't see even the
most sophisticated sims being anything more than an aid in teaching
procedures.

Seems like you ought to be able to get a fairly decent setup by using
bungees to center the stick and having some motors on the bungees. Move
them around to change the center if needed, tighten them to provide more
recentering force at high speed. Anyone know how the real force feedback
systems work and why my idea doesn't?

Wouldn't be worth the trouble. No matter what you do with force
feedback, unless you can come up with a way to duplicate the effect of
dynamic pressure on control surfaces based on a varying airspeed and air
density table, and for a specific aircraft to boot....you can't
duplicate actual control pressures for a desk top simulator.


--
Dudley Henriques

In rec.aviation.student Dudley Henriques wrote:
Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Yes. I've trid it and the home sim feedback systems are a joke. Even
sophisticated sims aren't great this way and I still can't see even the
most sophisticated sims being anything more than an aid in teaching
procedures.

Seems like you ought to be able to get a fairly decent setup by using
bungees to center the stick and having some motors on the bungees. Move
them around to change the center if needed, tighten them to provide more
recentering force at high speed. Anyone know how the real force feedback
systems work and why my idea doesn't?

Wouldn't be worth the trouble. No matter what you do with force
feedback, unless you can come up with a way to duplicate the effect of
dynamic pressure on control surfaces based on a varying airspeed and air
density table, and for a specific aircraft to boot....you can't
duplicate actual control pressures for a desk top simulator.

I imagine you could do a fairly decent job. A sim such as X-Plane has much
of the data needed to come up with the right numbers. But then again, I
don't know whether this is "fairly decent" as in something which just
deceives you, or as in something which is actually worthwhile. In any case
it's somewhat academic, since if the software doesn't support it then
there's no point in having the hardware, and if there's no hardware the
software won't support it....

If even the big iron sims don't do a good job, it should be a good
indication that this problem is harder than it looks from the outside.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Dudley Henriques wrote:
Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Yes. I've trid it and the home sim feedback systems are a joke. Even
sophisticated sims aren't great this way and I still can't see even the
most sophisticated sims being anything more than an aid in teaching
procedures.
Seems like you ought to be able to get a fairly decent setup by using
bungees to center the stick and having some motors on the bungees. Move
them around to change the center if needed, tighten them to provide more
recentering force at high speed. Anyone know how the real force feedback
systems work and why my idea doesn't?

Wouldn't be worth the trouble. No matter what you do with force
feedback, unless you can come up with a way to duplicate the effect of
dynamic pressure on control surfaces based on a varying airspeed and air
density table, and for a specific aircraft to boot....you can't
duplicate actual control pressures for a desk top simulator.

I imagine you could do a fairly decent job. A sim such as X-Plane has much
of the data needed to come up with the right numbers. But then again, I
don't know whether this is "fairly decent" as in something which just
deceives you, or as in something which is actually worthwhile. In any case
it's somewhat academic, since if the software doesn't support it then
there's no point in having the hardware, and if there's no hardware the
software won't support it....

If even the big iron sims don't do a good job, it should be a good
indication that this problem is harder than it looks from the outside.

In my opinion, no desktop simulator in use at this time coupled with any
controllers available for the intended purpose of replicating the
controls of an airplane in flight is capable of the fidelity level
necessary to duplicate the sensitive control "feel" absolutely critical
to the learning curve of a pre-solo student pilot.

--
Dudley Henriques

Michael Ash wrote in
:

In rec.aviation.student Dudley Henriques wrote:
Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Yes. I've trid it and the home sim feedback systems are a joke.
Even sophisticated sims aren't great this way and I still can't see
even the most sophisticated sims being anything more than an aid in
teaching procedures.

Seems like you ought to be able to get a fairly decent setup by
using bungees to center the stick and having some motors on the
bungees. Move them around to change the center if needed, tighten
them to provide more recentering force at high speed. Anyone know
how the real force feedback systems work and why my idea doesn't?

Wouldn't be worth the trouble. No matter what you do with force
feedback, unless you can come up with a way to duplicate the effect
of dynamic pressure on control surfaces based on a varying airspeed
and air density table, and for a specific aircraft to boot....you
can't duplicate actual control pressures for a desk top simulator.

I imagine you could do a fairly decent job. A sim such as X-Plane has
much of the data needed to come up with the right numbers. But then
again, I don't know whether this is "fairly decent" as in something
which just deceives you, or as in something which is actually
worthwhile. In any case it's somewhat academic, since if the software
doesn't support it then there's no point in having the hardware, and
if there's no hardware the software won't support it....

If even the big iron sims don't do a good job, it should be a good
indication that this problem is harder than it looks from the outside.


Well, the smoothest pilots i know can't fly a "good" sim. The mechanical
ones can..

Says it all, really.



Bertie

On Feb 10, 6:53*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Michael Ash wrote :





In rec.aviation.student Dudley Henriques wrote:
Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Yes. I've trid it and the home sim feedback systems are a joke.
Even sophisticated sims aren't great this way and I still can't see
even the most sophisticated sims being anything more than an aid in
teaching procedures.

Seems like you ought to be able to get a fairly decent setup by
using bungees to center the stick and having some motors on the
bungees. Move them around to change the center if needed, tighten
them to provide more recentering force at high speed. Anyone know
how the real force feedback systems work and why my idea doesn't?

Wouldn't be worth the trouble. No matter what you do with force
feedback, unless you can come up with a way to duplicate the effect
of dynamic pressure on control surfaces based on a varying airspeed
and air density table, and for a specific aircraft to boot....you
can't duplicate actual control pressures for a desk top simulator.

I imagine you could do a fairly decent job. A sim such as X-Plane has
much of the data needed to come up with the right numbers. But then
again, I don't know whether this is "fairly decent" as in something
which just deceives you, or as in something which is actually
worthwhile. In any case it's somewhat academic, since if the software
doesn't support it then there's no point in having the hardware, and
if there's no hardware the software won't support it....

If even the big iron sims don't do a good job, it should be a good
indication that this problem is harder than it looks from the outside.

Well, the smoothest pilots i know can't fly a "good" sim. The mechanical
ones can..

Says it all, really.

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's down to rainy day or otherwise IFR for me. Only time I do it. And
I get bored really fast -- no matter how many add ons I jam in it.

Doesn't hold a candle to the real thing.

wrote in
:

On Feb 10, 6:53*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Michael Ash wrote

et.com:





In rec.aviation.student Dudley Henriques
wrote:
Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Yes. I've trid it and the home sim feedback systems are a joke.
Even sophisticated sims aren't great this way and I still can't
see even the most sophisticated sims being anything more than an
aid in teaching procedures.

Seems like you ought to be able to get a fairly decent setup by
using bungees to center the stick and having some motors on the
bungees. Move them around to change the center if needed, tighten
them to provide more recentering force at high speed. Anyone know
how the real force feedback systems work and why my idea doesn't?

Wouldn't be worth the trouble. No matter what you do with force
feedback, unless you can come up with a way to duplicate the
effect of dynamic pressure on control surfaces based on a varying
airspeed and air density table, and for a specific aircraft to
boot....you can't duplicate actual control pressures for a desk
top simulator.

I imagine you could do a fairly decent job. A sim such as X-Plane
has much of the data needed to come up with the right numbers. But
then again, I don't know whether this is "fairly decent" as in
something which just deceives you, or as in something which is
actually worthwhile. In any case it's somewhat academic, since if
the software doesn't support it then there's no point in having the
hardware, and if there's no hardware the software won't support
it....

If even the big iron sims don't do a good job, it should be a good
indication that this problem is harder than it looks from the
outside.

Well, the smoothest pilots i know can't fly a "good" sim. The
mechanical ones can..

Says it all, really.

Bertie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's down to rainy day or otherwise IFR for me. Only time I do it. And
I get bored really fast -- no matter how many add ons I jam in it.

Yeah, I have a couple of them lying around and I never use them. Once
you've flown under a couple of bridges they are a complete bore.

Doesn't hold a candle to the real thing.


Exactly.


Bertie

For the work I do on the sim program both for Microsoft and developers I
use strictly CH Products. I've found them to be quite dependable and I
recommend them highly.

I can second that recommendation.

In 18 months of daily use, our "Kiwi" (a full-sized flight simulator that
uses CH yoke and rudder pedals) has logged thousands of hours, with people
from every age group.

Given the abuse some of them have given the CH products, I'm frankly
surprised at how well they've held up. The plastic collar that surrounds
the metal shaft of the yoke broke after a woman exerted incredible force
trying to TWIST the yoke back to flare, rather than simply pulling back --
but a simple application of J-B Weld (the greatest stuff in the universe,
BTW) to reinforce the area has restored the yoke to full function.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in
news:Jn6sj.29506$yE1.19771@attbi_s21:

For the work I do on the sim program both for Microsoft and
developers I use strictly CH Products. I've found them to be quite
dependable and I recommend them highly.

I can second that recommendation.

In 18 months of daily use, our "Kiwi" (a full-sized flight simulator
that uses CH yoke and rudder pedals) has logged thousands of hours,
with people from every age group.

Given the abuse some of them have given the CH products, I'm frankly
surprised at how well they've held up. The plastic collar that
surrounds the metal shaft of the yoke broke after a woman exerted
incredible force trying to TWIST the yoke back to flare, rather than
simply pulling back -- but a simple application of J-B Weld (the
greatest stuff in the universe, BTW) to reinforce the area has
restored the yoke to full function.

Barf



Bertie