Lancair crash at SnF

"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in
:


"Alric Knebel's Rack" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:06:42 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

It's not so much the loss of altitude that will get you in this
manuever. it's the probable loss of control trying to manuever
around back towards the field.
Firstly, in any emergency that hasnt been drilled, you will have a
moment where you will be sitting there with your mouth open in utter
disbelief of what has just happened. in fact, even if you have
drilled for it you will still have this moment, but if it's been
practiced the moment you begine to do something about it will be
sooner coming. While you're sitting there wondering what's going on,
the speed will be bleeding off. Not good.

Nothing you do is useful. You very rarely even come up with a good
idea, and when the blind squirrel principal does kick in
(astoundingly, you've seem to even defeat random chance with your
incompetence), you manage to cock it up so badly that what might have
been a useful thing in a normal person's hands turns to low-grade
fertilizer.

Those are your two claims to fame. Being a complete flake who can't
keep even the simplest of things on track for any significant period
of time, and being an absolute moron when it comes to understanding
what's useful to the piloting community, and implementing it.


No, actually he has proven himself a failure and dozens of things,
wannabe troll, pilot, motorcycle mechanic, and others. I think it
might be fair to label him a "complete" or "master" failure.




You can label me what you like, sunshine. You'll never get it.



Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
Big John wrote in
:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:40:55 -0700 (PDT), WingFlaps
wrote:

On Apr 25, 10:16 am, Stefan wrote:
WingFlaps schrieb:



(the stall is now damn close -better
hope there's no significant wind)
...
Now we add in the energy losses from having to
accelerate with the wind and to glide speed.

Arrrgh! Not the old "turn into downwind" legend again! Better work
out
your understanding of physics before publicly reasoning about turns.


Try reading the statement again, here it is:

"Now we add in the energy losses from having to accelerate with the
wind and to glide speed."

Now perhaps you would like to revise some physics and try to critcise
it for us?

I await your stumbling analysis of my words with mild amusement.

Cheers
*****************************************
Long time ago in the 30's I saw on a couple of occasions a Cub take
off in a strong head wind 25+ mph and make a 180 degree turn to down
wind. They then started losing altitude and mushed into the ground
nose high. Any idea why? Pilot's said they had full throttle and
proper RPM showed on engines until impact.



Wind gradient. As they climbed, the wind would increase and they'd lose
some airspeed until they were on the backside of the power curve.same
thing would happen if you took off with strong tailwind in the first
place. Also, the poorer climb angle even without the wind gradient would
cause many to get the nose up a bit too much as well if they were not
used to it.

Bertie

Turn your head 90 degrees and it will change the dynamics of all of it.
That's the way wind tunnels work, child.

Alric Knebel's Rack wrote in news:fuvp16
:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:06:42 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

It's not so much the loss of altitude that will get you in this
manuever. it's the probable loss of control trying to manuever around
back towards the field.
Firstly, in any emergency that hasnt been drilled, you will have a
moment where you will be sitting there with your mouth open in utter
disbelief of what has just happened. in fact, even if you have
drilled
for it you will still have this moment, but if it's been practiced
the
moment you begine to do something about it will be sooner coming.
While you're sitting there wondering what's going on, the speed will
be
bleeding off. Not good.

Nothing you do is useful. You very rarely even come up with a good
idea, and when the blind squirrel principal does kick in
(astoundingly,
you've seem to even defeat random chance with your incompetence), you
manage to cock it up so badly that what might have been a useful thing
in a normal person's hands turns to low-grade fertilizer.

Those are your two claims to fame. Being a complete flake who can't
keep even the simplest of things on track for any significant period
of
time, and being an absolute moron when it comes to understanding
what's
useful to the piloting community, and implementing it.


Uh, yeh, sure..

Bertie

"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in news:3jcRj.58626$QC.41863
@newsfe20.lga:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
Big John wrote in
:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:40:55 -0700 (PDT), WingFlaps
wrote:

On Apr 25, 10:16 am, Stefan wrote:
WingFlaps schrieb:



(the stall is now damn close -better
hope there's no significant wind)
...
Now we add in the energy losses from having to
accelerate with the wind and to glide speed.

Arrrgh! Not the old "turn into downwind" legend again! Better work
out
your understanding of physics before publicly reasoning about
turns.


Try reading the statement again, here it is:

"Now we add in the energy losses from having to accelerate with the
wind and to glide speed."

Now perhaps you would like to revise some physics and try to
critcise
it for us?

I await your stumbling analysis of my words with mild amusement.

Cheers
*****************************************
Long time ago in the 30's I saw on a couple of occasions a Cub take
off in a strong head wind 25+ mph and make a 180 degree turn to down
wind. They then started losing altitude and mushed into the ground
nose high. Any idea why? Pilot's said they had full throttle and
proper RPM showed on engines until impact.



Wind gradient. As they climbed, the wind would increase and they'd
lose
some airspeed until they were on the backside of the power curve.same
thing would happen if you took off with strong tailwind in the first
place. Also, the poorer climb angle even without the wind gradient
would
cause many to get the nose up a bit too much as well if they were not
used to it.

Bertie

Turn your head 90 degrees and it will change the dynamics of all of
it.
That's the way wind tunnels work, child.




Yeh, sure fjukktard.



Bertie

gregvk wrote in news:Xns9A8DE8C88AADEE817AC3D8380227
@127.0.0.1:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in news:fv3jdr$13s$14
@blackhelicopter.databasix.com:

"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in
:


"Alric Knebel's Rack" wrote in
message
...
On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:06:42 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

It's not so much the loss of altitude that will get you in this
manuever. it's the probable loss of control trying to manuever
around back towards the field.
Firstly, in any emergency that hasnt been drilled, you will have a
moment where you will be sitting there with your mouth open in
utter
disbelief of what has just happened. in fact, even if you have
drilled for it you will still have this moment, but if it's been
practiced the moment you begine to do something about it will be
sooner coming. While you're sitting there wondering what's going
on,
the speed will be bleeding off. Not good.

Nothing you do is useful. You very rarely even come up with a good
idea, and when the blind squirrel principal does kick in
(astoundingly, you've seem to even defeat random chance with your
incompetence), you manage to cock it up so badly that what might
have
been a useful thing in a normal person's hands turns to low-grade
fertilizer.

Those are your two claims to fame. Being a complete flake who can't
keep even the simplest of things on track for any significant
period
of time, and being an absolute moron when it comes to understanding
what's useful to the piloting community, and implementing it.


No, actually he has proven himself a failure and dozens of things,
wannabe troll, pilot, motorcycle mechanic, and others. I think it
might be fair to label him a "complete" or "master" failure.




You can label me what you like, sunshine. You'll never get it.



Bertie

You fail as a troll because nobody ever responds to your posts.
Especially Maxwell. He's waaaaaaay too smart for that.


i know. i feel so , foolish... He'd probably kick my ass in a game of
hangman as well.

Bertie

On Apr 27, 3:43 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Big John wrote :





On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:40:55 -0700 (PDT), WingFlaps
wrote:

On Apr 25, 10:16 am, Stefan wrote:
WingFlaps schrieb:

(the stall is now damn close -better
hope there's no significant wind)
...
Now we add in the energy losses from having to
accelerate with the wind and to glide speed.

Arrrgh! Not the old "turn into downwind" legend again! Better work
out
your understanding of physics before publicly reasoning about turns.

Try reading the statement again, here it is:

"Now we add in the energy losses from having to accelerate with the
wind and to glide speed."

Now perhaps you would like to revise some physics and try to critcise
it for us?

I await your stumbling analysis of my words with mild amusement.

Cheers
*****************************************
Long time ago in the 30's I saw on a couple of occasions a Cub take
off in a strong head wind 25+ mph and make a 180 degree turn to down
wind. They then started losing altitude and mushed into the ground
nose high. Any idea why? Pilot's said they had full throttle and
proper RPM showed on engines until impact.

Wind gradient. As they climbed, the wind would increase and they'd lose
some airspeed until they were on the backside of the power curve.same
thing would happen if you took off with strong tailwind in the first
place. Also, the poorer climb angle even without the wind gradient would
cause many to get the nose up a bit too much as well if they were not
used to it.

Bertie

I think someone screwed up. As he turned, his airspeed would
remain constant and in the turn he would begin to move sideways over
the ground, and as he completed the turn his groundspeed would be much
higher but his airspeed the same as before. The airplane has lots of
time to make the shift in direction and it's not an instantaneous
change in vectors.
The sideways drift over the ground (which is mentioned here
only as a reference for visual flying, not that the airplane cares
about the earth's mass) might have caused him to think he was slipping
big time, so he pumped in a bunch of rudder, skidding it badly and
spun it in. And that's the reason we teach "Illusions Caused by
Drift."

Dan

wrote in
:

On Apr 27, 3:43 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Big John wrote
:





On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:40:55 -0700 (PDT), WingFlaps
wrote:

On Apr 25, 10:16 am, Stefan wrote:
WingFlaps schrieb:

(the stall is now damn close -better
hope there's no significant wind)
...
Now we add in the energy losses from having to
accelerate with the wind and to glide speed.

Arrrgh! Not the old "turn into downwind" legend again! Better
work
out
your understanding of physics before publicly reasoning about
turns.

Try reading the statement again, here it is:

"Now we add in the energy losses from having to accelerate with the
wind and to glide speed."

Now perhaps you would like to revise some physics and try to
critcise it for us?

I await your stumbling analysis of my words with mild amusement.

Cheers
*****************************************
Long time ago in the 30's I saw on a couple of occasions a Cub take
off in a strong head wind 25+ mph and make a 180 degree turn to
down wind. They then started losing altitude and mushed into the
ground nose high. Any idea why? Pilot's said they had full throttle
and proper RPM showed on engines until impact.

Wind gradient. As they climbed, the wind would increase and they'd
lose some airspeed until they were on the backside of the power
curve.same thing would happen if you took off with strong tailwind in
the first place. Also, the poorer climb angle even without the wind
gradient would cause many to get the nose up a bit too much as well
if they were not used to it.

Bertie

I think someone screwed up. As he turned, his airspeed would
remain constant and in the turn he would begin to move sideways over
the ground, and as he completed the turn his groundspeed would be much
higher but his airspeed the same as before. The airplane has lots of
time to make the shift in direction and it's not an instantaneous
change in vectors.
The sideways drift over the ground (which is mentioned here
only as a reference for visual flying, not that the airplane cares
about the earth's mass) might have caused him to think he was slipping
big time, so he pumped in a bunch of rudder, skidding it badly and
spun it in. And that's the reason we teach "Illusions Caused by
Drift."


Yeah, that's a big factor in the downwind turn scenario, but I also find
few really appreciate the wind gradient element as well. It's quite
significant close to the ground and it's a big problem with downwind
takeoffs as well.


Bertie

yeah but you got creamed in this thread! :-? :/ :') Þ lol
WingFlaps expressed precisely :
Stefan was doing quite well actually,

Just quick addition to Michaels comments about why the 180 turn is
much easier in the sailplane.

1. is we do practice it with some frequency. We seldom get by a Flight
review with out doing at least one.

2.Guess what glider pilots typically do for about 50% of their flight.
We call it thermalling but it is really a steep (usually 40 to 60
degrees) turn at the minimum sink speed which is usually only a few
knots above stall speed, often in gusty conditions.. We also don't
have stall warnings (as it would be going off continously during this
maneuver) so we know the aerodynamic stall characteristics of the
glider in a steep turn intimently.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

I can see you missed the point entirely. By the way, Vy is never at
best glide (it is above that ~69knots in a 172) -perhaps you would
like to revise *what determines Vy? My point was to ilustrate the
impossible turn with some concrete numbers instead of the handwaving

If I read my aerodyamics book correctly my summary is Vy = the Best L/
D Speed Corrected for the affect of the engine running. The Correction
is usually small. So Vy is often very close to the Best Glide speed.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL