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CFI oral intel



 
 
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  #41  
Old May 30th 08, 12:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Stealth Pilot[_2_]
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Posts: 846
Default CFI oral intel

On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:37:03 -0400, Gezellig
wrote:

Jim Stewart presented the following explanation :
gatt wrote:

One of the folks around the hangar took his CFI practical last week. He
had his AGI so they threw out all of the Fundamentals of Instruction stuff
entirely during the oral.

A question the examiner asked him: "You're flying cross-country and trimmed
at 110 knots. You die, and the engine quits. At what airspeed will the
aircraft strike the ground?"

Another was, "You're turning final and you enter a cross-control stall. Is
it better to be in a slip, or a skid?"


I'm wondering what the significance of posting
this question is. Is it because everyone should
know the answer or because on some level it is
nonsensical?


Can't speak for gatt but the I take it for both. There are nonsensical
questions that need to be prepaered for after all its about passing a
test to get to the real learning.

NOOOO NO NO.

the whole purpose of these odd questions is that you cant prepare for
them.

however if you *understand* the aerodynamic principles and principles
of flight you can work out the answers.
never be afraid to work out the answer out aloud to them. it can show
more clearly than any other method that you understand ...or dont
understand what you've been taught.

Stealth Pilot
  #42  
Old May 30th 08, 02:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Gig 601Xl Builder
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Posts: 683
Default CFI oral intel

NW_Pilot wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On May 29, 7:21 am, gatt wrote:
One of the folks around the hangar took his CFI practical last week. He
had his AGI so they threw out all of the Fundamentals of Instruction
stuff entirely during the oral.


Huh, that's not right. There is nothing in the PTS that says you get
to skip the FOI stuff just because you have an AGI. The only thing you
get to skip is showing your FOI exam results. I had my AGI and
probably spent 5 hours of my CFI oral on FOI stuff.

-Robert, CFII, AGI

FOI is my hangup right now....



Different rating same sort of issue.

When I was doing my check ride for my helo rating the tester started to
ask me a question on navigation and stopped about 5 words in and said,
"Never mind, you already have you private rating I don't need to cover
that."
  #43  
Old May 30th 08, 04:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
PPL-A (Canada)
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Posts: 28
Default CFI oral intel

On May 29, 10:21*am, gatt wrote:
One of the folks around the hangar took his CFI practical last week. *He
had his AGI so they threw out all of the Fundamentals of Instruction
stuff entirely during the oral.

A question the examiner asked him: "You're flying cross-country and
trimmed at 110 knots. You die, and the engine quits. At what airspeed
will the aircraft strike the ground?"

Another was, "You're turning final and you enter a cross-control stall.
* Is it better to be in a slip, or a skid?"

-c


First question: Is my student with me or not? If I have a student
then I'd hope the plane would touch down somewhere nearby in a
suitable field (or one hopes on a runway if possible) at stall speed +
5 knots or so, since by this point if I have a student on a cross
country they should already know about emergencies, especially engine-
out off field landings (and on-field landings). If not, and I fell
forward on the yolk then who knows what speed ... higher than 110
knots. If I didn't fall on the yolk then the crash would be somewhere
around the 110 knots the plane was trimmed for (minus some is the
aircraft is in the climbing phase of its phugoid, or plus some if in
the diving phase), as a phugoid is all but inevitable if the engine
goes after I die (since I won't be alive to trim for the new
condition ... no prop thrust, and no blast over the tail will change
the trim and start a phugoid, characteristics will depend on the
aircraft, the c.of.g and loading).

Second question: I'd have already taught my student not to do this at
or near pattern/circuit altitude, and particularly not on final at
only 500 AGL ... if he/she has blown the approach ... too high or too
fast ... so badly then they would know not to try to be a hero ... go
around! If it did happen ... I'd rather have the high wing stall
first, since I can't know for sure exactly what control inputs the
student is making (although I do know what the student should be
doing). In normal turn-to-final circumstances this would normally be
a dangerous skid, with the student trying to make the aircraft turn
faster than it should (or god forbid the student is holding back the
turn with the yolk and trying to initiate it only with the rudder)
with too much bottom rudder ... this I do not want. If this does
happen then I suppose the slip would be preferred in the scenario, as
I would rather have too much top rudder (or not enough bottom rudder)
and have the high wing stall first and pass through wings level making
for a somewhat easier recovery. And then I would chasten the student
after initiating a go-around and remind him/her on crosswind and
downwind what he/she should already be familiar with. And we would
keep in the circuit until the student got the landing right after the
go-around ... no slipping and skidding in turns in the circuit. Only
use the slip once established on final, and only to correct for
crosswind if you have the engine running. The only reason to slip
aggressively for low-time students is an engine-out-gotta-land-
right-"there"-so-I-have-to-slip-it-in-because-I'm-too-high-now
emergency scenario.
  #44  
Old May 30th 08, 05:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
F. Baum
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Posts: 244
Default CFI oral intel

On May 29, 9:54*am, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Huh, that's not right. There is nothing in the PTS that says you get
to skip the FOI stuff just because you have an AGI. The only thing you
get to skip is showing your FOI exam results. I had my AGI and
probably spent 5 hours of my CFI oral on FOI stuff.


Is there anything in the PTS that says you have to be retested on
previously completed material ? If you spent 5 hours on an oral your
examiner was either an idiot or he/she wanted to show you how much he/
she knew. I would have walked out if I were you. For an examiner to be
able determine if you are prepared should take minutes, not hours.

F Baum

-Robert, CFII, AGI


  #45  
Old May 30th 08, 05:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Scien
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Posts: 10
Default CFI oral intel

A question the examiner asked him: "You're flying cross-country and
trimmed at 110 knots. You die, and the engine quits. At what airspeed
will the aircraft strike the ground?"


So if you flip the order of events: "the engine quits, and you die" my
guess would be best glide. First step in engine failure... although
kinda pointless if you know you are dead in the next 10 seconds. Also
setting the airspeed might be a race with death?
  #46  
Old May 30th 08, 05:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Gezellig
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Posts: 463
Default CFI oral intel

On Fri, 30 May 2008 19:23:11 +0800, Stealth Pilot wrote:

I'm wondering what the significance of posting
this question is. Is it because everyone should
know the answer or because on some level it is
nonsensical?


Can't speak for gatt but the I take it for both. There are nonsensical
questions that need to be prepaered for after all its about passing a
test to get to the real learning.

NOOOO NO NO.

the whole purpose of these odd questions is that you cant prepare for
them.

however if you *understand* the aerodynamic principles and principles
of flight you can work out the answers.
never be afraid to work out the answer out aloud to them. it can show
more clearly than any other method that you understand ...or dont
understand what you've been taught.

Stealth Pilot


I see your point.
  #47  
Old May 30th 08, 06:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Michael[_1_]
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Posts: 185
Default CFI oral intel

On May 30, 3:36*am, "Hilton" wrote:
Why? *Because all posts have made the (probably) incorrect assumption that
the aircraft somehow fly wings-levels to its demise. *That just won't
happen. *Forget dihedral, that won't stop it going into a spiral.


You're right, of course. The only way that will happen is with
artificial stability augmentation (a single axis autopilot). With a
two axis autopilot the plane will hit at stall speed. It may or may
not be wings level, depending on the stall characteristics.

See, this is what made the question such a good one. It allows lots
of room to explore different aspects of aerodynamic stability.

Michael
  #48  
Old May 30th 08, 06:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Steve Hix
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Posts: 340
Default CFI oral intel

In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:
Really getting nitty here Hilton :-)

With the engine dead, and assuming good rigging, there is no specific
reason to assume a spiral. The initial question specified the engine
"quit". Again, assuming proper trim and no aerodynamic forces to induce
bank, the aircraft for all practical purposes anyway, can be assumed a
straight path into the ground.

Take out the proper trim and an idling engine and perhaps you have a
case for a spiral. Also, few aircraft are rigged perfectly so that also
could be a factor for a spiral.


Turbulence would increase the likelihood of a spiral departure from
level flight, wouldn't it?

Other than these things being present and considering the "spirit" of
the question, trim speed would be the answer for ground impact in my
opinion.

  #49  
Old May 30th 08, 07:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
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Posts: 2,546
Default CFI oral intel

Stealth Pilot wrote:
On Thu, 29 May 2008 19:28:41 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

gatt wrote:


Another one for the archives. Thanks, Dudley.

I got the information about the question second-hand (the candidate told
the chief instructor who told me) so I'm not sure exactly what the
examiner as getting at. Now I'm really curious. It probably boils down
to the difference between a cross-control stall behavior in a slip
versus a skid. The FSDO examiners out here really hammer CFI candidates
on aerodynamics, or so I'm told, and less on the FOI if the candidate
appears reasonably capable of teaching. Seems appropriate enough.

-c

You're welcome.

What they probably want is be assured that the CFI fully understands the
dangers involved with skidding turns, especially at low altitude.

To do it right, the CFI should use the necessity to impart this
information to discuss and teach cross controlled stall in ALL
configurations so that a BETTER understanding of the various
ramifications involved be more understood.


oh bull**** dudley. they ask oddball questions like these to sort out
the rote learners who have swatted up all the past paper answers but
dont actually know diddly squat, and like MX, have no actual
understanding of what they sprout.

you can work out the answers from first principles if you actually
understand the fundamentals.

Stealth Pilot

Right. I'll change my approach to flight instruction immediately :-)

--
Dudley Henriques
  #50  
Old May 30th 08, 07:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
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Posts: 2,546
Default CFI oral intel

Steve Hix wrote:
In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote:
Really getting nitty here Hilton :-)

With the engine dead, and assuming good rigging, there is no specific
reason to assume a spiral. The initial question specified the engine
"quit". Again, assuming proper trim and no aerodynamic forces to induce
bank, the aircraft for all practical purposes anyway, can be assumed a
straight path into the ground.

Take out the proper trim and an idling engine and perhaps you have a
case for a spiral. Also, few aircraft are rigged perfectly so that also
could be a factor for a spiral.


Turbulence would increase the likelihood of a spiral departure from
level flight, wouldn't it?

Other than these things being present and considering the "spirit" of
the question, trim speed would be the answer for ground impact in my
opinion.

Yes. Anything that changed the basic balance equation that was in effect
when the trim was set would do that.

--
Dudley Henriques
 




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