chain of events

While ultracaps do
store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. This
application isn't really a UPS per se

Why not? As long as those 30 seconds suffice to e.g. get said generator
online, the system serves to maintin power in the event of a utility power
failure, making it an uninterruptible power supply.

Which part of UPS don't I get?

Anno.

The "U" part.

Uninteruptable means you never miss a cycle, the light bulbs never blink,
etc.

Uninteruptable supplies are now cheap for small systems and available, but
costly, when aplied on a grand scale. What you descrbed is a backup or
standby generator with automatic changeover.

If you think of the situation that the passengers might see inside the
terminal, most of the lighting and possibly the schedule monitors would be
backed up by the standby generator--because there are enough battery powered
emergency lights to prevent panic and/or injuries. OTOH, the computers
which drive the monitors would be on UPS. Today, most of the monitors would
probably be on UPS as well, since it is no longer expensive to do so--and
probably contributes to calm amoung the public in the terminal.

Peter

Peter Dohm writes:

If you think of the situation that the passengers might see inside the
terminal, most of the lighting and possibly the schedule monitors would be
backed up by the standby generator--because there are enough battery powered
emergency lights to prevent panic and/or injuries.

Do power failures normally cause panic?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Newps wrote:

Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:

UPS are usually designed to come online within a couple of cycles.


I have never seen a UPS that takes more than a fraction of a cycle to
transition to backup mode.

We have UPS's in the tower and TRACON. They work only when properly
maintained. Ours are not and it's a 50/50 bet that the entire
tower/TRACON will reset when they don't work. If they don't work it's a
10-15 second deal while everything comes back on line. That's why we
always manually turn on the back up generators whenever there are
thunderstorms in the area.

In fact, units which are used in "mission
critical" applications are not the line interactive type as you seem
to be thinking about above, instead are dual online conversion. I
would assume that a UPS used for ILS equipment and radio
communications for ATC would be a mission critical design as opposed
to the less than reliable line interactive design.

They are not.

If you keep posting facts instead of idle speculation you're going to
ruin USENET.

On Mar 10, 12:59 am, Dave S wrote:
KM wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S wrote:


Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
separate locations.

I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.

Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.Tower in one place,
approach controll facility in another.If you get a frequency change
and try unsucsessfuly to check on what are you gonna do? Go back to
the last assigned, right?I think the last thing you are going to do is
just keep motoring along and ignore turning to final and ignore your
TCAS.

I once was a volunteer fireman for about 10 years... in that time, we
had a big snake go slithering up equipment in a substation one night. I
guess the hum and warmth of the stuff was just tooo inviting to resist.
He completed a short circuit that took out power to thousands of homes,
caused a PCB oil fed fire and had the fire marshall's office initially
investigating it as a terrorist act until we found the charred skeleton
of the snake. (Pre 2001 but after 1994 - the first WTC). The transformer
bit is quite credible, and if you are ever near one when one lets go,
its an underwear changing event.

Wow, being a fireman had to be pretty interesting.I have seen a
transformer let go once.I dont know what size it was but it was
spectacular.There are some plausable elements to "Capt" Dougs story,
and that is what makes it entertaining."Capt" Doug reminds me of Cliff
Claven, who was a charatcer on the TV show "Cheers".Cliff was a bar
fly who always had in depth knowlege about everything, but in real
life he was a mailman who lived with his mom.I am not trying to knock
"Captain" Doug, because Cliff's words of wisdom were always amusing
and he was one of the most popular characters on the show.Captain Doug
is just like Cliff in that he posts about stuff he knows nothing
about.But, many of his posts are plausible enough that they are
amusing and entertaining.I hope I havent chased the guy off by asking
what he really does for a living.The only sad part of this is the
couple of dickheads (Matthew Barrow and a guy going by Kilomike) who
thought this story was true.

... something like this happens, with big iron yanking and
banking on the final approach course, after an explosion at an airport,
with a power loss.... and never heard a word about it except here.. hmmm..

Delta had two incidents out of LAX, before I got there (G), and they
both made national headlines.A few years ago I had an incident that
caused a return to the airport, and with the advent of cell phones,
one of the local news stations actually called Delta for a comment
BEFORE whe could taxi to the gate and deplane and go downstairs to
talk to the chief pilots office about it.

The only sad part of this is the
couple of dickheads (Matthew Barrow and a guy going by Kilomike) who
thought this story was true.

Well, I thought it was true. I've seen enough other kinds of things
gone spectacularly wrong due to a single dumb point of failure that it
would not surprise me if something like this were in fact true.

And actual accident reports of real crashes are far more incredible.

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Mar 10, 1:04 pm, "KM" wrote:
On Mar 10, 12:59 am, Dave S wrote:

KM wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S wrote:

Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
separate locations.

I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.

Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.Tower in one place,
approach controll facility in another.If you get a frequency change
and try unsucsessfuly to check on what are you gonna do? Go back to
the last assigned, right?I think the last thing you are going to do is
just keep motoring along and ignore turning to final and ignore your
TCAS.


Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?

On Mar 10, 11:41 am, "Andrew Sarangan" wrote:

Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?- Hide quoted text -

Andy, every situation is a little different but I really dont think
this story is plausible on several accounts.Let me answer your
question in several parts.First, in the event of lost comm you would
join the course you were being vectored for.The A340 crew would have a
flag on the ILS (The CDI changes color so this wouldnt go unnoticed)
but, the LNAV course to the airport would still be depicted on the ND
(I know every airline does things a little differently but I am sure
at least one of the pilots would be required to be in the MAP mode
during an approach).Another thing is that given the circumstances in
the story, the TCAS would probably issue 3 or 4 RAs in this timeframe
(In both jets no less).We are required to respond to an RA (and answer
to ATC later).I dont know how you would figure out if a TA or RA is
false. Also, if the pilots can see an explosion on the airport, it is
highly unlikely they would overshoot final while looking right at
it.The last part of your post is right on the $$$, they would aviate
and then communicate.
KM

The TCAS is real, you are required to follow the RA.




Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Forgive me for asking, but if I can't raise tower and TCAS is going
off, and the CDI shows I still have not intercepted the localizer, my
first priority would be to fly the airplane on the last assigned
heading and figure out if the TCAS warning is real. Attempting to go
back to the last assigned frequency will be a low priority item, no?

KM wrote:


Dave, with all respect, you dont understand.

I understand fine. I am done however, trying to prove it to you. Got
better things to do.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Peter Dohm writes:

If you think of the situation that the passengers might see inside the
terminal, most of the lighting and possibly the schedule monitors would be
backed up by the standby generator--because there are enough battery powered
emergency lights to prevent panic and/or injuries.

Do power failures normally cause panic?

New York City, 1977
West Coast of USA, 1996