"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 20, 1:37*pm, William Black wrote:
Alexander wrote:
Actually Kaiser of America built thousands of liberty ships out of
Fero-concrete. Diesel Engine dropped in minutes

Welded steel and fuel oil fired triple expansion engines.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Note the ferro-concrete ships were smaller,4600 tons, than the
Liberties, 14,000 tons, and took longer, three to six weeks, compared
to the Kaiser-built ship every ten days. And, the ferro-concretes
generally were only made late, 1944-5.

Don Ocean wrote:
Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
,
Ken
S. Tucker writes

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.

In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five
days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California,
commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace,
race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare
victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and
seventy for "recreational services"?)

I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's
still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some
clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took
the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well.

I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.
But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.


Britain was not at war with Croatia.

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.

Apart from those in the hands of the 11 infantry divisions and
2 armoured brigades deployed for home defense.

Those 2 or 3 rifles came in rather handy in defeating the large
Italian army that invaded Egypt


Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.

There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen
cruisers
5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking turns
at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow
walking pace. Oops.

All sunk of course.

Who by?

The German air force had problems hit a collier running up the channel
at 7 knots in those days and their ship had this nasty habit of sinking
if they occupied the space adjacent to any RN ships of the same size,
mainly because the RN had a lot more ships...

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Ken S. Tucker wrote:

You have the benefit of wearing rose colored glasses, but be careful,
you may end up paying for "easy" wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and ...
OTOH, it's good to have realistic hard cold logical analysis.
Ken

I don't ever remember anyone saying that Afghanistan would be easy.


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Alexander wrote:
Andrew Swallow wrote:
William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

You are dreaming. Very few War Historians believe that the English
Lion would not succumb in the event Germany had turned to England
rather then Russia.

How do they get there to inflict this defeat?

And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply?
The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in
the Channel a turkey shoot. Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on
ordinary roads/railways cannot be used.

Andrew Swallow

If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now
toothless.

How the hell do the Germans over-run Scapa.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Alexander wrote:
William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

You are dreaming. Very few War Historians believe that the English
Lion would not succumb in the event Germany had turned to England
rather then Russia.

How do they get there to inflict this defeat?

That has already been answered. Move on.

Well, no it hasn't.

How do you defeat the Royal Navy?

Magic pixies with ship destroying oofle dust?


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

In message , William Black
writes
Alexander wrote:
That has already been answered. Move on.

Well, no it hasn't.

How do you defeat the Royal Navy?

Magic pixies with ship destroying oofle dust?

The Germans have a plan. Their chief weapon is a cunning plan...a
cunning plan and cool uniforms...cunning plan and shiny jackboots....
Their two weapons are a cunning plan and their nifty uniforms...and
their ruthless Teutonic efficiency.... Their *three* weapons are a
cunning plan, cool uniforms, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost
fanatical devotion to the Fuhrer.... their *four*...no... *Amongst*
their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as cunning
plans, smart uniforms.... I'll come in again?

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black
wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...

I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.
My my, someone on the BIGOT list and who had access to ULTRA.
That's about a dozen people below general officer rank.
Shouldn't be too hard to identify him.
That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.

Not sure about the "BIGOT" acronym, a

Why am I not surprised...
It's not an acronym, it's a code word.

Well I missed that memo.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing
cabinet, probably still classified.

Oh no they won't be.

In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't
you
get the memo.

He had access to everything, as you can imagine, but the only
person he'd talk to about it was me, and only at the cottage we
built when we were alone, after drinking he'd loosen up a bit, but
he was always careful about what he said.

Nobody except the heads of state and the joint chiefs committee had
access to everything.
Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access.

Old Boy told me he was a corporal, he was ordered to de-brief RCAF
personel, and I presume said personel were ordered to provide full
cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA,
except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command,
his duties in that respect were more than clerical.
RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making
him a de-briefer, and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he
likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did, where
results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists,
based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel.

Have you considered reading a book?

Which book did you read?

Start with Churchill.

Ya think a politician is unbiased do you?

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.
Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor,

Recall Taranto and Cape Matapan...

suppose the

Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.
Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.

And so easy to sink, especially at night.

But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge.

Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at
that date.

As good or better than anyone.

Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?

40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night?
(please don't tell me I need to prove math).

You don't know what the Military Canal is do you?
Mr. Black

Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is
what
the girls liked to swim across too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Bell
Is that what you mean?
Ken

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black
wrote:


It's not an acronym, it's a code word.

Well I missed that memo.

You're not kidding.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing
cabinet, probably still classified.
Oh no they won't be.

In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't
you
get the memo.

********.

It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but historians.


Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access.

Old Boy told me he was a corporal,

So he didn't actually have any access at all.

I presume said personel were ordered to provide full
cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA,
except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command,
his duties in that respect were more than clerical.

You mean he was an intelligence clerk.

RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making
him a de-briefer

Not a chance.

Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection.


, and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he
likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did,

Take it from me, anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have
been allowed within a mile of ULTRA


where
results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists,
based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel.

Corporals don't.


Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.
And so easy to sink, especially at night.

But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge.

Barges son, barges...

Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at
that date.

As good or better than anyone.

Nope.

They had some real problems sinking anything. They could hit some stuff
standing still, but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their
performance was dreadful.


You don't know what the Military Canal is do you?
Mr. Black

Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is
what
the girls liked to swim across too.

The Military Canal is not the Channel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal

It's not getting into it, it's getting out.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

On Mar 20, 11:15*am, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message , William Black
writes

Alexander wrote:
*That has already been answered. Move on.

Well, *no it hasn't.

How do you defeat the Royal Navy?

Magic pixies with ship destroying oofle dust?

The Germans have a plan. Their chief weapon is a cunning plan...a
cunning plan and cool uniforms...cunning plan and shiny jackboots....
Their two weapons are a cunning plan and their nifty uniforms...and
their ruthless Teutonic efficiency.... Their *three* weapons are a
cunning plan, cool uniforms, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost
fanatical devotion to the Fuhrer.... their *four*...no... *Amongst*
their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as cunning
plans, smart uniforms.... I'll come in again?

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

Wow, I didn't expect the Nazi inquisition!

BB

William Black wrote in
:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black
wrote:


It's not an acronym, it's a code word.

Well I missed that memo.

You're not kidding.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a
filing cabinet, probably still classified.
Oh no they won't be.

In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't
you
get the memo.

********.

It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but
historians.

Exactly.

My father's last post before retirement was as the Senior Research
Officer in the Directorate of History of NDHQ in Ottawa from about '71
to '82. One of his secondary duties was directorate security officer. As
such, he was responsible for more classified documents than anyone else
in NDHQ, and he, under the instructions of the Director, controled access
to every classifed document in RG24 at the National Archives. They had
tonnes of documents in 600 filing cabinets and safes in the Ogilvie Annex
of NDHQ, and every six months he had to go through a classified document
muster.

My father's magnum opus in his last years was to help draft the Access to
Information Act's declassification sections. He did it with a view to
releasing as much as possible as soon as possible, because he knew that
keeping secrets is expensive. However, he knew that some secrets might
have to be kept forever. (I suspect that the "forever" secrets have more
to do with our allies than our erstwhile enemies.)

Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access.

Old Boy told me he was a corporal,

So he didn't actually have any access at all.

Corporals working on BIGOT material likely only handled envelopes and
folders, or PA'ed documents to file and little else.

I presume said personel were ordered to provide full
cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA,
except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command,
his duties in that respect were more than clerical.

You mean he was an intelligence clerk.

Tucker appears to have woven an old boy's yarn into whole cloth.

RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making
him a de-briefer,

Not a chance.

Anyone the RCAF took the trouble to train as a navigator went on to
flying duties--unless he washed out for medical or other reasons.

Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection.


and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he
likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did,

Take it from me, anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have
been allowed within a mile of ULTRA

And any secret stuff people on flying duties saw had a very, very short
shelf life.

where
results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists,
based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel.

Corporals don't.


Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.
And so easy to sink, especially at night.

But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge.

Barges son, barges...

Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at
that date.

As good or better than anyone.

Nope.

They had some real problems sinking anything. They could hit some
stuff standing still, but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their
performance was dreadful.


You don't know what the Military Canal is do you?
Mr. Black

Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is
what
the girls liked to swim across too.

The Military Canal is not the Channel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal

It's not getting into it, it's getting out.

You're getting a good demonstration of how resistant Canadian brick
masonry is to logic, William.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)