A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Instrument Flight Rules
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Flight of two, IFR



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old March 20th 04, 12:59 AM
Stan Gosnell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Andrew Gideon wrote in
online.com:

How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can
this be done electronically?


Visual. It's rare for the visibility to be so low as to be
unable to see past the wingtip. And military formation flights
are very close together. Helicopter formations have to be a
little further apart, but I've flown in formation IFR in UH1s.
It's not really that difficult in most cases, at least no more
difficult than flying a tight formation in the first place. We
also used to fly night formations without lights, using only the
cockpit instrument lights of the ship we were flying on, with
10+ ship formations, landing to completely unlit LZs with one
strobe to mark the landing site for the lead. Not fun, not
smart, but we were young and stupid and drawing flight pay. The
ones I felt sorry for were the grunts in the back.

--
Regards,

Stan
  #12  
Old March 20th 04, 06:56 AM
Chip Jones
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?


I took a handoff on what I though was a single RV8 headed IFR from Lexigton
KY to Lawrenceville GA. My flight progress strip said "8/RV8/G" in the type
box. Thinking some controller had made a bad URET data entry up in Indy
Center (a typical situation since ZID doesn't use paper strips and makes
flight data errors frequently), I queried the pilot on inital contact.

"N123, I think we've fumbled your flight data between Centers. I'm showing
you as a flight of 8 RV8's. Verify you are a single ship?"

"Negative Atlanta, we're a flight of 8."

"Err, OK... how far back is the tail end Charlie?"

"Center, the entire flight is within 100 yards..."

I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads? Another day at the office or
do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?

Chip, ZTL



  #13  
Old March 20th 04, 07:18 AM
Ditch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


I don't know if there are separate civil procedures; the concept should be
the
same.


When I did some work for Air Combat USA (marchetti operation) , we had
procedures in place for a formation IMC recovery. I was bummed that I never got
to execute it.
I have done civilian IMC formation before.
Really not that big of a deal if you are profecient at formation flying, as
flying realatively tight is a prerequisite.




-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*
  #14  
Old March 20th 04, 08:26 AM
Jim Baker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Stan Gosnell" me@work wrote in message
...
Andrew Gideon wrote in
online.com:

How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can
this be done electronically?


Visual. It's rare for the visibility to be so low as to be
unable to see past the wingtip. And military formation flights
are very close together. Helicopter formations have to be a
little further apart, but I've flown in formation IFR in UH1s.
It's not really that difficult in most cases, at least no more
difficult than flying a tight formation in the first place. We
also used to fly night formations without lights, using only the
cockpit instrument lights of the ship we were flying on, with
10+ ship formations, landing to completely unlit LZs with one
strobe to mark the landing site for the lead. Not fun, not
smart, but we were young and stupid and drawing flight pay. The
ones I felt sorry for were the grunts in the back.

--
Regards,

Stan


Not always Stan. I flew lots of IMC 2 and 3 ship formations in B-52s and
B-1Bs. Altitude separation and electronic station keeping was used to
maintain position. I've also flown a lot of T-38 formation, some of it IMC,
and we just tucked it in close and kept it visual in those instances.

Regards,

Jim


  #15  
Old March 20th 04, 02:48 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Chip Jones" wrote in message
k.net...

I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads? Another day at the office

or do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?


There's no differentiation between civil and military with regard to
formation flights. They can land as a formation or individually, the choice
is theirs.


  #16  
Old March 20th 04, 10:25 PM
Jim Harper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Chip Jones" wrote in message nk.net...
"Doug" wrote in message
om...
charming anecdote snipped


I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads? Another day at the office or
do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?

Chip, ZTL



Chip, no doubt it was another day at the office. LZU is home for a
great EAA chapter and one of the most active...if not THE most
active...RV formation teams in the country.

They have a very formal school and procedure to bring newbies
along...err, newbies would be like me!

Jim Harper
RV 8A N888FP
Flying off the hours!
  #17  
Old March 20th 04, 11:56 PM
Newps
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Chip Jones wrote:


I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads?


Yep, cleared to land.


Another day at the office or
do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?


Some land as a flight, some break up.

  #18  
Old March 21st 04, 01:46 AM
Ben Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article t,
Chip Jones wrote:
I took a handoff on what I though was a single RV8 headed IFR from Lexigton
KY to Lawrenceville GA. My flight progress strip said "8/RV8/G" in the type
box. Thinking some controller had made a bad URET data entry up in Indy


Knowing how much RV guys like formation flying, I'd be more inclined
to worry if I saw a flight strip that claimed to be a SINGLE RV going
anywhere.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/
  #19  
Old March 25th 04, 04:11 AM
Tom Inglima
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The military does it all the time.

Tom
"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?



  #20  
Old December 19th 19, 03:00 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Flight of two, IFR

I fly F-16s with the Air Force. There are essentially three methods of formation flying through IFR. The first is by maintaining fingertip formation (roughly 3 foot wingtip separation). Flight lead flies off his instruments while wingmen fly visually off him since you can usually see far enough to maintain visual inside of a cloud. This is normally done as a 2-ship. There are also specific procedures for deconflicting if you lose the visual. The second is instrument trail where you take off with some briefed time delay and every flight member calls their altitude over the intraflight frequency every 5000 feet during the climb and calls every turn. This is only done on departures and flight members are not allowed to be at the same altitude until in VMC and visual with each other. The final one is most common in fighters which is called a radar trail. This is where every flight member locks the one in front of them with their radar and deconflicts based on that.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) Rich Stowell Aerobatics 28 January 2nd 09 03:26 PM
new theory of flight released Sept 2004 Mark Oliver Aerobatics 1 October 5th 04 10:20 PM
Flight Simulator 2004 pro 4CDs, Eurowings 2004, Sea Plane Adventures, Concorde, HONG KONG 2004, World Airlines, other Addons, Sky Ranch, Jumbo 747, Greece 2000 [include El.Venizelos], Polynesia 2000, Real Airports, Private Wings, FLITESTAR V8.5 - JEP vvcd Home Built 0 September 22nd 04 07:16 PM
FAA letter on flight into known icing C J Campbell Instrument Flight Rules 78 December 22nd 03 08:44 PM
Sim time loggable? [email protected] Instrument Flight Rules 12 December 6th 03 08:47 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.