Phantom flight

Hi all,

I had a great opportunity yesterday. I'm a hornet driver by
trade, and got a chance to fly the F-4 on a qual/eval as part of
the test pilot school course. After trying to flare on my first
several landings like the Air Force IP in the back seat wanted, I
planted my last landing pretty firm within the first 100 feet of
the runway (no ball to fly though).

I have to say I have a lot more respect for anyone who landed
that aircraft on a boat.

Ray

"Raymond Marshall" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I had a great opportunity yesterday. I'm a hornet driver by trade, and
got a chance to fly the F-4 on a qual/eval as part of the test pilot
school course. After trying to flare on my first several landings like
the Air Force IP in the back seat wanted, I planted my last landing pretty
firm within the first 100 feet of the runway (no ball to fly though).

I have to say I have a lot more respect for anyone who landed that
aircraft on a boat.

The Phantom was very stable aircraft around the boat. Despite its genuine
mach 2 capability (well, maybe not the S model), it was remarkably docile
and forgiving throughout its envelope. It had high wing loading and
relatively unsophisticated aerodynamics so it couldn't turn (except perhaps
compared to a Zipper ... oops, an opening for Walt he'll likely not refuse).
Didn't have the sports car feel of some jets ... more like a pickup truck,
but a solid and reliable jet.

If you get an opportunity to get checked out in the F-8, I recommend you go
for it. THAT was an airplane that could enthrall you ... and then bite you
on the ass.

R / John

John Carrier wrote:
The Phantom was very stable aircraft around the boat. Despite its genuine
mach 2 capability (well, maybe not the S model), it was remarkably docile
and forgiving throughout its envelope.

My flight instructor once mentioned that on his first flight in a
Phantom, as he got it slowed down for landing, it scared the poo out of
him (apparently *felt* like it was in danger of departure, even though
it was O.K.).

Can any of you experienced Phantom pilots shed any light on this?

--
John Miller
email domain: n4vu.com; username: jsm(@)

Raymond Marshall wrote:
Hi all,

I had a great opportunity yesterday. I'm a hornet driver by trade, and
got a chance to fly the F-4 on a qual/eval as part of the test pilot
school course. After trying to flare on my first several landings like
the Air Force IP in the back seat wanted, I planted my last landing
pretty firm within the first 100 feet of the runway (no ball to fly
though).

I have to say I have a lot more respect for anyone who landed that
aircraft on a boat.

Ray

Well, compared to the Turkey, I say it was much easier as it was so
stable on airspeed, to power changes. Get on speed, pull power go down
faster, add power, go up faster. It was sometimes said it was so fast
that you didn't have time to goon things up when on the ball.

I loved it around the boat.

John Miller wrote:
John Carrier wrote:

The Phantom was very stable aircraft around the boat. Despite its genuine
mach 2 capability (well, maybe not the S model), it was remarkably docile
and forgiving throughout its envelope.


My flight instructor once mentioned that on his first flight in a
Phantom, as he got it slowed down for landing, it scared the poo out of
him (apparently *felt* like it was in danger of departure, even though
it was O.K.).

Can any of you experienced Phantom pilots shed any light on this?


Well, it did get a little 'vague' when you got around 'on speed', and
the margin from onspeed to nose wander, wing drop off wasn't that large
but ya got used to it. Yopu could do all sorts of things with the stick
when really slow, w/o the jet doing anything, since so much of the
wing/stab was somewhat ineffective.

What was really scary was riding along on a mode 1 at the boat and
watching the stick move some vast amounts, w/o the jet really doing
anything.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:47:41 GMT, Raymond Marshall
wrote:

Hi all,

I had a great opportunity yesterday. I'm a hornet driver by
trade, and got a chance to fly the F-4 on a qual/eval as part of
the test pilot school course. After trying to flare on my first
several landings like the Air Force IP in the back seat wanted, I
planted my last landing pretty firm within the first 100 feet of
the runway (no ball to fly though).

I have to say I have a lot more respect for anyone who landed
that aircraft on a boat.

Ray

You don't say which model of the F-4 you were flying. Big differences
in handling between slatted and hard-wing aircraft. Ditto for
long-nose gun-bearers compared to pug-nose varieties.

But, having landed C, D and E models on runways for many years without
the benefit of a ball, I'll contribute that the Phantom was a pretty
easy airplane to land. AOA lights/tone were pretty close to all you
need. Set AOA to on-speed, then use the throttle to move your impact
point up or down the runway. The nose really doesn't demo a lot of
pitch change, but simply rides down the glide path--push some power
and you slow your descent and extend the point of touch-down. Hold
what you've got until ground effect when the nose will want to drop a
bit, but you wind up really holding the pitch attitude rather than
flaring.

Now, get in the back seat and try the no-flap straight-in. You'll love
the part from two miles out until just over the overrun where you
can't see the runway at all.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

If you get an opportunity to get checked out in the F-8, I recommend you
go for it. THAT was an airplane that could enthrall you ... and then bite
you on the ass.

Not a single one flying anymore... sad...
_____________
José Herculano

Hi John,
I had the pleasure of flying most all the F4 models made for the Navy
at Pax River. Also had one squadron tour in the F4J block 46 and a
couple hundred landings. Had many traps in the F8E with more than a
few "wet flight suit" traps in the dark. Also had traps in props. I
believe I can say without fear of argument from any Phantom that the
F4 was the easiest airplane ever built to land, carrier or shore based.
For starters, the F-4s were all assigned to the "big" decks. Having
grown up on 27 Charlies, the "big" decks were like cheating. Secondly
the F-4 dirtied up was ultra-stable. Squeeze a hair of power and the
ball went up a hair. First time in my career I ever saw a ball go out
the side of the lens. In F-8s you left the ball nearing the ramp and
gave it a little high dip to set the hook or it could easily bounce and
hook skip the whole speghetti pile. The Phantom just hit the deck and
planted itself dowm. Tail hook the size of a plow shear, never heard
of one parting. If you did bolt, a rarity, you had enough power to
bend it around in a VFR pattern and get back to the groove in about 60
seconds. About the only gripe we had around the boat was fuel
consumption was high. Almost as bad as present day F-18s. But our
boarding rates were in the 90% range and bolts were uncommon. By far
the best carrier plane I personally ever flew. Now in the air in ACM
it was a dog and took both hands to pull max G's. Pretty good vertical
with it's power and gave you a real edge over guys who didn't like to
get their nose up. Nasty and unrecoverable flat spin mode, not as bad
as the F-14 but usually resulted in either a punch out or a mort. So
you didn't spin it, simple enough. The guy who told you the F-4 was
scary dirty must have been a helo pilot or an USAF guy. Not all that
analytical for sure.





John Miller wrote:
John Carrier wrote:
The Phantom was very stable aircraft around the boat. Despite its
genuine
mach 2 capability (well, maybe not the S model), it was remarkably
docile
and forgiving throughout its envelope.

My flight instructor once mentioned that on his first flight in a
Phantom, as he got it slowed down for landing, it scared the poo out
of
him (apparently *felt* like it was in danger of departure, even
though
it was O.K.).

Can any of you experienced Phantom pilots shed any light on this?

--
John Miller
email domain: n4vu.com; username: jsm(@)

On 26 Mar 2005 14:19:03 -0800, "Bob" wrote:

Hi John,
. Now in the air in ACM
it was a dog and took both hands to pull max G's. Pretty good vertical
with it's power and gave you a real edge over guys who didn't like to
get their nose up. Nasty and unrecoverable flat spin mode, not as bad
as the F-14 but usually resulted in either a punch out or a mort. So
you didn't spin it, simple enough. The guy who told you the F-4 was
scary dirty must have been a helo pilot or an USAF guy. Not all that
analytical for sure.

That's low. Really low.

And, notice how I resist saying that USAF guys could pull max G with
out using two hands.

I just wouldn't say something like that.

Of course, if you didn't have to hover on the CAP at "max conserve"
orbiting at 250 KIAS to meet cycle time it was a lot easier. Just run
around the alloted area a bit above corner velocity and you can grab
all the G you want with one hand.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed Rasimus wrote:
You don't say which model of the F-4 you were flying. Big differences
in handling between slatted and hard-wing aircraft. Ditto for
long-nose gun-bearers compared to pug-nose varieties.

I suppose I really need to elaborate for the group since I
haven't been a regular poster here. I flew F-18Cs from Lemoore
in VFA-147 for 3 years. Made two cruises and survived a little
over 300 traps. I've got about 960 hours in the F-18 and am
currently going through the USAF Test Pilot School.

As part of the course, I got a single flight qualitative
evaluation of the QF-4E. The airplane was from Holloman AFB,
serial number 71-087. The jet came complete with a huge auto
pilot control panel to enable the drone control station to fly
it. Fortunately I didn't get to evaluate that part of the
airplane. I did get to fly from the front seat, do everything
from start up, taxi and takeoff to 4 landings. I took off,
climbed up and looked at the dirty stall characteristics, did
some of the advanced handling characteristic maneuvers that were
interesting, and also did a couple 30 degree dive bomb runs. I
finished the flight with a short low level. I did 2 flap down
touch and gos (I think this is what the navy versions of the F-4
called half flaps), a simulated single engine touch and go, and a
full flap full stop. I used the drag chute on the full stop
which was pretty cool.

Now I've got to write a short report on my evaluation of the F-4
and what I learned flying it. Don't get something for nothing...
So what did I learn? My first impression was that the pitch
control was very sensitive. At higher airspeeds it was very
little movements that gave you 5 gs or -1 gs. Rolling in and out
of turns really highlighted this to me. At slower speeds the
pitch had a lot of lag and my inputs tended to overshoot my
desired target.

But, having landed C, D and E models on runways for many years without
the benefit of a ball, I'll contribute that the Phantom was a pretty

As for landings, I found that the jet was very honest with speed
changes. It was very easy to set the throttles, and almost
instantly speed would be stabilized... it was mushy feeling
control wise but I always felt like I had good control. I think
the difference was the switch from up and away with pitch so
sensitive to small movements, and then in the landing pattern you
had to use large movements to make the jet respond. The
simulated single engine landing was almost a non event. I really
liked the AOA tones, once I had made a couple landings. I could
also see how they'd be useful for fighting the jet once you had
some experience.

Now, get in the back seat and try the no-flap straight-in. You'll love
the part from two miles out until just over the overrun where you
can't see the runway at all.

Funny that you mention that... we had a layer we might have had
to fly above and the IP debated putting in the handheld GPS they
use with area boundaries because it blocked the only small hole
he had to see the runway from the back seat. He said 'I suppose
you're not going to kill me are you?' and then put the GPS in.

V/r,

Ray Marshall