USA Proposed Rule Change on Start Time Reporting

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 3:04:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:

The provision for allowing start times to be called in well after the start was put in to make it viable for a pilot to call his start in for the original intended reasons while minimizing the tactical issues. It also left in the ability for pilots to have a sense of how they were doing later in the flight which many really like. Whether I like it is directly related to how I'm doing, I admit it.
If you call in 30 seconds after you start, you are either a chump or making a false start. Or----- Maybe you are letting the guy you would like to fly with know it's time to go. Hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!
The process will still be there, just a little simpler and not mandatory.
UH

To elaborate on UH's historical context - here is little insight on the logic behind this change.

The original rule came about as part of the transition from start gate/photo evidence tasking to start cylinder/GPS evidence tasking. GPS marked the demise of ground controlled, visually measured, redline dive starts. As a guy who got to man the start line (more fun when Spratt was there) or start height (Maytag repairman lonely and boring) half of the gate I can attest this was a good thing.

As mentioned, the purpose of start time reporting was to provide enjoyment, peace of mind and expectations for finish times for ground personnel by knowing when pilots went out on course, but also specifically to minimize the tactical benefit to pilots by making it very hard to follow a competitor based on a 15 minute delayed call.

With the broad adoption of various forms of sailplane tracking (including now free, smartphone based ones - funny how these different rules interact), start time reporting is now of zero incremental benefit to people on the ground - trackers are superior in just about every way imaginable.

The recording of start time reporting is not reliable enough to be enforced by rule (radio transmission/reception issues, stepped on starts, garbled reports). It is also an additional work task for contest personnel as someone needs to stand by a radio and focus on nothing but careful listening and recording of every start. Ask anyone who has done this how much fun it is. (N.B. Adding an additional requirement for positive receipt of start time reports through return radio confirmation would make this burden even worse, and for no benefit based on the original logic for the rule).

The inherent ambiguity as relates to start time reports as described above makes enforcement by rule problematic. If your start wasn't recorded on the ground does this mean you didn't try to report it from the air or it just didn't get through for some reason? What if you misread your start altitude/time in some way? What if you exit the cylinder not intending to take a start? What if your start is disallowed after the fact (say, for a 2 minute rule violation) thereby making an earlier exit from the cylinder that you didn't intend as a start to become your official start and the one that needs to be reported? (Don't laugh, these things happen and get adjudicated). 2014 pointed the problems with the rule out in spades with a long, drawn-out and man-hour intensive protest and subsequent appeals.

At the vast majority of contests I've attended (maybe 100%) the CD has gone with the default, voluntary reporting regime, yet pilots regularly report start times without being required to. That is how it usually works. Pilots report, people on the ground who care (and other pilots who care) listen, but nobody is legally responsible for recording it. This state of affairs argues against making reporting of start time information illegal outright - plus the RC is not so much in the mindset of banning things these days.

Lastly, if pilots want to track starts Flarm is a far better tool. You can see practically the entire front half of the start cylinder with Flarm and therefore see who is really taking a start rather than just reporting a cylinder exit so the whole start roulette dance is reduced.

The change simply eliminates version of the rule that, 1) is rarely, if ever, used, 2) is an additional chore for contest personnel if it is used, 3) creates enforcement problems and 4) is no longer needed for its intended purpose to be served due to technological innovations in the sport (Flarm and sailplane trackers).

Feel free to continue to report your start times (or not) as you have always done. No one is going to stand in your way if you want to and no one is going to make a Federal case out of it if you don't.

Now, back to the MAT-ness.

9B

HATness.

Some other reasons for dropping start time reporting

As Tom pointed out, pilots in IGC contests do not have the convenience of hearing when other pilots start. As Tom and I and many other US team pilots have found out, having to keep track of competitors visually is a major difference to sitting around and waiting for radio calls. The pre-start game of lions and hyenas is a key part of WGC AT tactics (Prepare for mass postings by Sean). We're terrible at it.

The RC hears regularly that we should make US contests more like IGC contests. Often we say no, because doing so compromises something else about US contests. This one seems free. If you want to follow the gaggle, you'll have to look out the window just like at the worlds. Coincidentally, it makes following the gaggle just a wee bit harder.

As Tim might know, a considerable amount of effort this year went in to resolving a protest over start time reporting. Some motivation for removing the rule is that hearing protests over start time reporting seems a rather large waste of effort.

More generally, we (or at least I) am on a big simplification kick. You might say that it's only a few lines of rules, but simplification means taking every single line and seeing if it's worthwhile. Simplifying US rules is going to be like simplifying the US tax code. We all think the rules are horrible, but propose one specific rule like this one, and out come the howls on RAS.

Another principle sneaking in to the rules. If we don't want to hear proteststs about it, or enable a protest, then it shouldn't be a rule. This year there was a big "shall" vs. "should" revision in the rules (thanks John Good).

A slightly less delicate view of history. In the good old days, you knew when to start when you heard "KS, IP" or "DJ IP" on the radio. You had to watch out for them returning to try again, but otherwise life was easy. At least when you heard the chorus of lemmings you knew the gaggle was off. When we introduced the GPS start, a big howl of protest amounted, essentially, to "but now I won't know when to start." The real reason start time reporting went in was to accommodate such pilots. RC does try to make pilots happy.. All this business about keeping crews interested and organizers informed mattered a wee little bit, but not a whole lot. Individual crews could always hear from their pilot on 123.5.

Well, times have changed, and as Sean keeps reminding us, US contests are down the toilet of almost all MAT and TAT where following KS and DJ isn't so important. Plus, we've all got flarm radar now (whoops, I let the cat out of the bag, here comes UH!). And the crews (both of them, bless their hearts) have the ever better tracking screen.

Furthermore, it seems strange to have rules banning radio communication for strategic reasons (at nationals), but allowing, nay mandating, one of the most important ones. We all know that a call "BB, start 12:02" issued at "12:02:01" means "I'm going now if anyone wants to go together" -- and specifically teammates and buddies. Why mandate this and ban "I've got 6 knots over the pinenuts?"

Have I beat this to death? I hope so. Start silently, simplify rules.

John Cochrane

If the IGC does not require reporting, I am OK with adopting their policy. Is that a first in the US? ;-)

At the end of the day, this is a small thing. I can't understand half of the radio calls anyway.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 3:24:53 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
If the IGC does not require reporting, I am OK with adopting their policy.. Is that a first in the US? ;-)

At the end of the day, this is a small thing. I can't understand half of the radio calls anyway.

Start times are reported by the team captain, or designee, to the officials.. It is not done over the radio.
There is a lot of intrigue during the start period as teams try to figure out what the other guys are doing. Our team captain in Musbach (Dianne) was quite good at figuring out some of the code. It was helpful to get a call saying "our friends are going in 5 minutes". But- that is a different game than we play here.
FWIW
UH

As of WGC 2014 in Leszno (and maybe Finland) there was no start time reporting.

In the past, yes, you called your team captain and he submitted a paper start time to the scoring office.

In Leszno - none - they took it all from the IGC file. The reporting rule is gone.

As of WGC 2014 in Leszno (and probably Finland too) there was no start time reporting.

In the past, yes, you called your team captain and he submitted a paper start time to the scoring office.

In Leszno - none - they took it all from the IGC file. The reporting rule is gone at WGC.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 2:20:07 PM UTC-8, Dave Springford wrote:
As of WGC 2014 in Leszno (and probably Finland too) there was no start time reporting.

In the past, yes, you called your team captain and he submitted a paper start time to the scoring office.

In Leszno - none - they took it all from the IGC file. The reporting rule is gone at WGC.

In Finland we reported our start times to the team captain.

Sean Franke

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 12:45:11 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
Some other reasons for dropping start time reporting

As Tom pointed out, pilots in IGC contests do not have the convenience of hearing when other pilots start. As Tom and I and many other US team pilots have found out, having to keep track of competitors visually is a major difference to sitting around and waiting for radio calls. The pre-start game of lions and hyenas is a key part of WGC AT tactics (Prepare for mass postings by Sean). We're terrible at it.

The RC hears regularly that we should make US contests more like IGC contests. Often we say no, because doing so compromises something else about US contests. This one seems free. If you want to follow the gaggle, you'll have to look out the window just like at the worlds. Coincidentally, it makes following the gaggle just a wee bit harder.

As Tim might know, a considerable amount of effort this year went in to resolving a protest over start time reporting. Some motivation for removing the rule is that hearing protests over start time reporting seems a rather large waste of effort.

More generally, we (or at least I) am on a big simplification kick. You might say that it's only a few lines of rules, but simplification means taking every single line and seeing if it's worthwhile. Simplifying US rules is going to be like simplifying the US tax code. We all think the rules are horrible, but propose one specific rule like this one, and out come the howls on RAS.

Another principle sneaking in to the rules. If we don't want to hear proteststs about it, or enable a protest, then it shouldn't be a rule. This year there was a big "shall" vs. "should" revision in the rules (thanks John Good).

A slightly less delicate view of history. In the good old days, you knew when to start when you heard "KS, IP" or "DJ IP" on the radio. You had to watch out for them returning to try again, but otherwise life was easy. At least when you heard the chorus of lemmings you knew the gaggle was off. When we introduced the GPS start, a big howl of protest amounted, essentially, to "but now I won't know when to start." The real reason start time reporting went in was to accommodate such pilots. RC does try to make pilots happy. All this business about keeping crews interested and organizers informed mattered a wee little bit, but not a whole lot. Individual crews could always hear from their pilot on 123.5.

Well, times have changed, and as Sean keeps reminding us, US contests are down the toilet of almost all MAT and TAT where following KS and DJ isn't so important. Plus, we've all got flarm radar now (whoops, I let the cat out of the bag, here comes UH!). And the crews (both of them, bless their hearts) have the ever better tracking screen.

Furthermore, it seems strange to have rules banning radio communication for strategic reasons (at nationals), but allowing, nay mandating, one of the most important ones. We all know that a call "BB, start 12:02" issued at "12:02:01" means "I'm going now if anyone wants to go together" -- and specifically teammates and buddies. Why mandate this and ban "I've got 6 knots over the pinenuts?"

Have I beat this to death? I hope so. Start silently, simplify rules.

John Cochrane

John the US tax code is not fixable. It needs to be rewritten...