PW-6 family fun ------

Although anonymous posters seem to have good reason
to conceal their identity...I'll bite.

Since you have such a problem with this glider combination...what
would your suggested alternative be?

Well, I'll bite, too. In retrospect, I guess my intial reaction was due
to a coincidence of two irritating moments:
(1) A shameless plug from a dealer for a certain plane, with absolutely
no valuable information at all. It could have been an ETA, a Duo
Discus, an ASH-25 or whatever, and I would still have criticised the
original post as the covert advertisement it is.
(2) The shameless plug actually promoted a PW-5/6, which in my very
humble opinion (though shared by many others) is a couple of
offensively ugly gliders. This probably made my initial statement a bit
more "spicy" than necessary. ;-)

Answering your question, I would recommend a combination of ASK-21 and
LS-4, both quite versatile gliders, usable for teaching but also in
competitions.

And no, these are not the only gliders I have flown in my life. And
yes, these are the gliders I have been trained on, and I still think it
was an excellent choice of our gliding club to transition from BF
III/IV + K8.

For XC-teaching we have come to use Duo Discus, which for the student
is the 2nd two seater glider he/she will learn to fly. The Duo is of
course far superior for XC than the ASK-21 and at the same time offers
the student the possibility to hone his/her gliding skills: Starting
and landning is less easy than ASK-21, but the reward is far better
performance.

(2) The shameless plug actually promoted a PW-5/6, which in my very
humble opinion (though shared by many others) is a couple of
offensively ugly gliders. This probably made my initial statement a bit
more "spicy" than necessary. ;-)

Answering your question, I would recommend a combination of ASK-21 and
LS-4, both quite versatile gliders, usable for teaching but also in
competitions.

Agreed on pewee 5, but how exactly is Ask-21 better than Pewee 6?
Other than brand new price tag being doubled or so. Same 1:31 gliding
ratio according to SM testing, so you hypothesis is based on the same
idea people go and buy MB cars thinking they've just got a better
build, reliable flashy vehicle soon thereafter they realize it's a
flashy Ford quality money pit. My club picks would be Pewee 6 - for
a price of 20 year old Ask-21 used in a club you can get a new one and
Ls-4.

Hmmm, I don't know the price tag in the US (assuming you have a north
american perspective on things)... but over here in Europa the ASK-21
is not that expensive and it's a very sustainable strategy for a bigger
gliding club to actually by a new ASK-21 when the old one has reached a
certain flight time limit, and to sell off the old one for a good price
on the second hand market.
However, I do share your opinion on the MB...

At 18:54 05 March 2006, Knacklappen wrote:
Well, I'll bite, too. In retrospect, I guess my intial
reaction was ..


Well I tend to agree with you...in that if I had a
choice between a used LS4 or a new PW5 for club training
I would pick the former. But there is a signifigant
price difference between PW6, Duo and ASK21...so I
suggest you are comparing apples to oranges.

Last time I checked....the options for basic training
two-place ships less then $100k is rather limited.

Hmm... $100k sounds very much. I guess the transport costs distort the
prices, over here in Europe you can get some nice ships for that amount
of money...

But yet you fly a Jantar...?


At 23:54 06 March 2006, Gk wrote:
As my old instructor once replied after I asked him
if we could invert
the 23 year old,club operated Grob 103 - '...fine,
just drop me off
before you'll do that...'.

The answer is simple. The ASK 21 is a quality glider.
The PW6 is a lower quality glider built to a price.
Comparing these two gliders is like comparing a BMW
and a Hyundai.

If you are struggling with the answer to your question
I suggest you take a closer look at the two aircraft.
If you can't see the difference in build quality then
you have even less engineering awareness than me –
and that’s saying something.

Check the tailplane hookup arrangement. Note that
when you sit in the back of the 21 you actually have
instruments.

Also, check the finish of a 5 year old 6 vs a 5 year
old 21.

There's nothing wrong with the PW6 if you are buying
to a price. It lower quality and therefore cheaper.

You always get what you pay for.

B


At 13:42 06 March 2006, Gk wrote:

(2) The shameless plug actually promoted a PW-5/6,
which in my very
humble opinion (though shared by many others) is a
couple of
offensively ugly gliders. This probably made my initial
statement a bit
more 'spicy' than necessary. ;-)

Answering your question, I would recommend a combination
of ASK-21 and
LS-4, both quite versatile gliders, usable for teaching
but also in
competitions.

Agreed on pewee 5, but how exactly is Ask-21 better
than Pewee 6?
Other than brand new price tag being doubled or so.
Same 1:31 gliding
ratio according to SM testing, so you hypothesis is
based on the same
idea people go and buy MB cars thinking they've just
got a better
build, reliable flashy vehicle soon thereafter they
realize it's a
flashy Ford quality money pit. My club picks would
be Pewee 6 - for
a price of 20 year old Ask-21 used in a club you can
get a new one and
Ls-4.

Interesting --- paying German workers incredibly high hourly rates means
the quality of their work is higher too? Both ships are designed to the
same European Union standards.

Ben Flewett wrote:
The answer is simple. The ASK 21 is a quality glider.
The PW6 is a lower quality glider built to a price.
Comparing these two gliders is like comparing a BMW
and a Hyundai.

If you are struggling with the answer to your question
I suggest you take a closer look at the two aircraft.
If you can't see the difference in build quality then
you have even less engineering awareness than me –
and that’s saying something.

Check the tailplane hookup arrangement. Note that
when you sit in the back of the 21 you actually have
instruments.

Also, check the finish of a 5 year old 6 vs a 5 year
old 21.

There's nothing wrong with the PW6 if you are buying
to a price. It lower quality and therefore cheaper.

You always get what you pay for.

B

There are no "European Union quality standards". The EASA authority is
mostly concerned with performance limits, like g-loads. How the gelcoat
is degrading over time is not regulated anywhere, and it would be a
ridiculous overregulation if it were.