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Borgelt Dynamis variometer



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 9th 19, 05:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Borgelt[_2_]
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Posts: 29
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt
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  #2  
Old March 9th 19, 04:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 145
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 10:56:31 PM UTC-6, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng


Mike,
Congratulations on the breakthrough. I'm very interested in the product, my first impulse is that I want one.
I am in the camp that finds the modern varios a huge improvement, but too busy. I find the information too much to filter to be all that useful to me most of the time and would like something complimentary.
It would be great to get a description of it's features/price.
It would be great to see a video with more transitions from fast speed through pull-up to thermalling.
It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario.
From the video it was hard for me to determine exactly how accurate it is measuring updrafts at high speed, how do we know unless the glider pulls up and thermals in that airmass? I don't own a Quintus, I need to circle...
I'm eagerly awaiting more information!
Everyone says that a vario "tells you what the airmass is doing". I think a GOOD vario gives you the information you need to make the determination whether to circle or not based on your desired criteria, (and indicates what speed to fly when running of course). With some varios there is a huge difference between the two...
  #3  
Old March 10th 19, 04:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 374
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 3:12:38 PM UTC, wrote:
On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 10:56:31 PM UTC-6, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng


Mike,
Congratulations on the breakthrough. I'm very interested in the product, my first impulse is that I want one.
I am in the camp that finds the modern varios a huge improvement, but too busy. I find the information too much to filter to be all that useful to me most of the time and would like something complimentary.
It would be great to get a description of it's features/price.
It would be great to see a video with more transitions from fast speed through pull-up to thermalling.
It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario.
From the video it was hard for me to determine exactly how accurate it is measuring updrafts at high speed, how do we know unless the glider pulls up and thermals in that airmass? I don't own a Quintus, I need to circle...
I'm eagerly awaiting more information!
Everyone says that a vario "tells you what the airmass is doing". I think a GOOD vario gives you the information you need to make the determination whether to circle or not based on your desired criteria, (and indicates what speed to fly when running of course). With some varios there is a huge difference between the two...


This earlier video shows a direct comparison between two B800s, with or without the Dynamis system. The differences are easier for me to see and there is an in flight commentary:

https://vimeo.com/206681292
  #4  
Old March 11th 19, 09:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Borgelt[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Sunday, 10 March 2019 01:12:38 UTC+10, wrote:
On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 10:56:31 PM UTC-6, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal gust effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng


Mike,
Congratulations on the breakthrough. I'm very interested in the product, my first impulse is that I want one.
I am in the camp that finds the modern varios a huge improvement, but too busy. I find the information too much to filter to be all that useful to me most of the time and would like something complimentary.
It would be great to get a description of it's features/price.
It would be great to see a video with more transitions from fast speed through pull-up to thermalling.
It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario.
From the video it was hard for me to determine exactly how accurate it is measuring updrafts at high speed, how do we know unless the glider pulls up and thermals in that airmass? I don't own a Quintus, I need to circle...
I'm eagerly awaiting more information!
Everyone says that a vario "tells you what the airmass is doing". I think a GOOD vario gives you the information you need to make the determination whether to circle or not based on your desired criteria, (and indicates what speed to fly when running of course). With some varios there is a huge difference between the two...


The Dynamis vario has all the features of the B600/B800 systems which you can read about on our website at www.borgeltinstruments.com These are the result of 45 years of continuous effort at engineering and refining sailplane variometers.
The audio is common to all our variometer products just that there are added audio features on the more advanced varios. We don't get complaints about the audio but it is customizable. I discourage this.

Modern varios are an improvement over older ones and it is relatively easy to build vario sensors nowadays with the advent of high stability digital pressure sensors but all of these varios suffer the same problems. You can see this if you set a TE one up for relatively gentle climbs and dives and then go to 110+ knots and do a hard pullup. There are g effects. You can see these on the LX vario in the video. This topic may be a subject of an upcoming video.

Dynamis uses methods not used before in any total energy variometers, to my knowledge.
This is how we separate the vertical motion from the horizontal motion of the air. Variometers are meant to display vertical motion and changes thereof but conventional varios mix varying amounts of the horizontal unsteadiness of the air into the vertical variometer display. The gain of this mixing depends on the square of the TAS so the problem has become far worse as glider performance and cruising speeds increase and the spurious "noise" is now of magnitude comparable to signals you are looking for and occurs at the same frequencies so you cannot simply filter it out.

An analogy would be if your car speedometer had large random (non periodic) fluctuations imposed on the reading so that when driving in a 50 km/hr zone most of the fluctuations average around +/- 12 km/hour but they really are random and some are larger than this. How can you be sure that you are not exceeding the limit at any moment? Driving in a 100km/hour zone the speedo fluctuates by +/- 50 km/hour at random, with some larger and some smaller excursions. How can you tell if you can go faster or are risking a ticket?
This essentially describes all pre Dynamis variometers.

With good information you can make instant decisions about circling or not.
When I was competing I used to find that by the time I decided it was worth pulling up in, slowing down and starting to turn I had flown through the core. Then, complete 180 degree or so turn, fly back for 5 seconds or more and then start circling in the core. Sometimes works out better than that but mostly not. Costs about 20 seconds per thermal. Then, how often do you pull up and try to circle and there is nothing there but sink. You probably didn't just turn the wrong way but had encountered a significant gust on the nose. A wasted circle costs at least 30 seconds and up to a minute depending on the sink you encountered. Add these up over a 3 hour race.
Might be cheaper to buy Dynamis than a new glider!
  #5  
Old March 11th 19, 09:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Borgelt[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

I don't know how that video went public. It wasn't meant to. It was at Tocumwal during the Benalla Worlds in January 2017. I was in the back seat. The video editor did a great job cleaning up the commentary.

At the time Dynamis had some offset problems under some flight conditions. These are now eliminated as can be seen in the Quintus video where the LX vario and Dynamis agree on average.

On Monday, 11 March 2019 01:28:50 UTC+10, wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 3:12:38 PM UTC, wrote:
On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 10:56:31 PM UTC-6, Mike Borgelt wrote:
Well we finally got all the algorithms right and the plus and minus signs in the right places. It took a lot longer than we thought until we made a testing breakthrough. One day the story will get told.

Our beta testers report they are very happy and could not fault it.
Search Youtube for Borgelt Instruments for the 20 minute video of Dynamis performing in a Quintus alongside an LX 9000 and vario.

Pilot flew 700km that day. Fast, smooth response and no sensitivity to horizontal gusts or the "g" effects of the mounting of the TE probe vs the variometer. That is, the Dynamis variometer only shows the changes to the vertical air motion.

The horizontal guts effect is proportional to the SQUARE of the TAS and this has become a huge problem with modern, high wing loading gliders cruising at speeds of 100 to 110 knots IAS at altitude where the TAS can be over 140 knots. Very small horizontal gradients in the air cause large signals on Total Energy variometers
(a one knot per 50 meters gradient will cause a 5 knot signal at 100 KTAS and 10 knots at 140 KTAS).

The LX vario was set to 1.5 seconds (fast) time constant. Note there is nothing "wrong" with the LX vario it is just subject to all the known limitations of ALL previous Total Energy variometers.

Any questions, please use the email address on the Borgelt Instruments website, NOT the gmail one as it NEVER gets checked.

Please do not expect to get a description of how it works, just note from the video that it does. It has been a long project dating back to before Borgelt Instruments was formed in 1978.

After many ideas, blind alleys, false starts and miss steps, most of which did not survive initial analysis, although some made it to flight test, serious development of the final instrument was started in early 2013 after confirmation of sensor performance and has just been completed.

We anticipate a couple more interesting display developments as we now have complete 3D knowledge of air motion, vertical as well as vector wind (speed and direction.

I'll try to put together a second video in the next few days from the last half of the 1.5 hours of video we got on 9th February 2019. This was my first video editing effort.

Mike Borgelt


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng


Mike,
Congratulations on the breakthrough. I'm very interested in the product, my first impulse is that I want one.
I am in the camp that finds the modern varios a huge improvement, but too busy. I find the information too much to filter to be all that useful to me most of the time and would like something complimentary.
It would be great to get a description of it's features/price.
It would be great to see a video with more transitions from fast speed through pull-up to thermalling.
It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario.
From the video it was hard for me to determine exactly how accurate it is measuring updrafts at high speed, how do we know unless the glider pulls up and thermals in that airmass? I don't own a Quintus, I need to circle....
I'm eagerly awaiting more information!
Everyone says that a vario "tells you what the airmass is doing". I think a GOOD vario gives you the information you need to make the determination whether to circle or not based on your desired criteria, (and indicates what speed to fly when running of course). With some varios there is a huge difference between the two...


This earlier video shows a direct comparison between two B800s, with or without the Dynamis system. The differences are easier for me to see and there is an in flight commentary:

https://vimeo.com/206681292

  #6  
Old March 11th 19, 10:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 374
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 8:56:07 PM UTC, Mike Borgelt wrote:
I don't know how that video went public. It wasn't meant to. It was at Tocumwal during the Benalla Worlds in January 2017. I was in the back seat. The video editor did a great job cleaning up the commentary.

At the time Dynamis had some offset problems under some flight conditions.. These are now eliminated as can be seen in the Quintus video where the LX vario and Dynamis agree on average.



Sorry if posting that link wasn't appropriate Mike, I just Googled "Borgelt Dynamis video" and found the video at the top of the page. It looks good to me!

Can you reveal some practical installation information? Is there an additional sensor box behind the panel and, if so, what size is it? Is there a compass sensor that would have implications for location and orientation? Is GPS input essential for the Dynamis to operate?

John Galloway
  #7  
Old March 12th 19, 03:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Quebec
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Posts: 253
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

No harm done Mike, the video does show the difference in response quite well. Ive been waiting for dynamis, it’s the reason I bought a B800 from you.
Well done mate!
  #8  
Old March 12th 19, 07:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Gary Wayland
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Posts: 85
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer


"It would be great if we could hear it. A sound that I don't like is a deal killer no matter how much I like the vario."

The best vario sound I ever heard was the ILEC SB-8. It sounded like a Wurlitzer organ.

5 and 6 hours in the cockpit and it would not tire you. These single tone varios are better left on the quiet side...

If Mike is building one, you know it's going to be a great instrument...

Gary

"SQ"
ASW-27b



  #9  
Old March 13th 19, 05:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 25
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

Would a more valid comparison be against the Butterfly/Air Avionics vario? I presume that is what you are intending to compete against.
  #10  
Old March 18th 19, 11:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 374
Default Borgelt Dynamis variometer

The Butterfly Vario offers mixing in a pilot defined proportion of mems derived airmass input along with the probe pressure derived netto vario indication and displays it as the blue ball. The Dynamis seems to be a large step beyond that in terms of variometry but without the other inbuilt display and Nav functions of the Butterfly.
 




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