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Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 29th 20, 09:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.

I'm sure that's true for some AWD vehicles, but it is not true for either Subarus or Audis - both of which I have owned. Both tend to bias power to the front in slightly different ratios, but have some power going to all wheels by default.


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  #22  
Old October 29th 20, 12:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 4:09:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:
AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.

I'm sure that's true for some AWD vehicles, but it is not true for either Subarus or Audis - both of which I have owned. Both tend to bias power to the front in slightly different ratios, but have some power going to all wheels by default.


Actually, it is true of no vehicles. Those that don’t have permanent AWD systems (such as Quattro, Symmetrical, or Halda) use viscous couplers to transfer drive to the REAR wheels when the fronts lose grip, not the other way around.
  #23  
Old October 29th 20, 12:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:30:16 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Thanks.

Regards,
"Target"


I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.

I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.

AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.

Tom

I was thinking about when you need to get in that muddy pasture or farmers field. I typically drive my F150 in 2WD. No control issues at all.
  #24  
Old October 29th 20, 01:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,678
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

AS wrote on 10/28/2020 7:09 PM:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:02:00 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips.

Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.

Uli
'AS'

I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.

Tom


Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.

Uli
'AS'


Oops - forgot to mention: I used to own a class C motorhome and I towed a brakeless trailer with it. The motorhome was based on a 1977 Dodge B-Van, so no ABS or any other electronic assistance on this blue shag-carpeted puppy.. I ended up almost jack-knifing on my way to Caesar Creek when traffic ahead came to a sudden stop in a rain storm and I tried to change lanes. Fortunately, there was nobody next to me but seeing the trailer in it's full glory in the outside mirrors was not fun.

Uli
'AS'

I chose my Class C motorhome in big part because it has the longest wheelbase (and shortest
overhang) in it's size (24'), but primarily for stability in strong winds, trucks passing, and
to reduce the amount of scraping on the hitch entering/exiting driveways and gas stations. It
would never jackknife on good surfaces, but I can see the problem with slippery conditions -
rain, snow, gravel, etc, even with brakes.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #25  
Old October 29th 20, 02:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,678
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

2G wrote on 10/28/2020 10:30 PM:
On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Thanks.

Regards,
"Target"


I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. Theres plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.

I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.


AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.

There is part-time AWD, which you described, and full-time AWD, which delivers the power to all
the wheels as needed - no waiting for traction be lost. Most pilots will never need the
off-road advantages of 4WD for retrieving, so might be better served with AWD, or even 2WD,
giving them a much wider choice of vehicles.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #26  
Old October 29th 20, 02:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
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Posts: 589
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:26:24 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:38:30 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 11:25:07 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 7:02:00 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips.

Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.

Uli
'AS'

I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.

Tom

Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.

Uli
'AS'

It means EXACTLY what I said: I have never heard of it. It sounds like YOU have never heard of it, either.

Tom


It sounds like YOU have never heard of it, either.

Only experiences an almost jack-knifing (see my follow-up post), so I know first hand that it can happen. It made me rethink this whole 'trailer w/o brake' thing.

Uli
'AS'


So, you don't know of any Class C jack-knifing.

Tom


Does an 'almost' jack-knifing I personally experienced count?

Uli
'AS'
  #27  
Old October 29th 20, 04:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,257
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:30:16 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Thanks.

Regards,
"Target"

I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.

I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.

AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.

Tom

I was thinking about when you need to get in that muddy pasture or farmers field. I typically drive my F150 in 2WD. No control issues at all.


The time will come when you realize that you need 4WD because you will be stuck. I needed 4WD just to get into my backyard. It came in particularly handy when I did a long retrieve in Nevada and was in 4WD for 50-60 miles of back roads, some of which were flooded. Remember, you only need one bad point to get stuck.

Tom
  #28  
Old October 29th 20, 05:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,379
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

Remember also two truisms about 4WD: 4WD gets you further in before you
get stuck, and ALL vehicles (these days) have 4 wheel brakes (that's for
all the 4WD guys that jam the throttle on icy roads).

Dan
5J

On 10/29/20 9:36 AM, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 4:41:08 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:30:16 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 at 6:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 11:23:41 AM UTC-7, Chris Behm wrote:
I am wondering how often a truck for towing a glider trailer might be an advantage? I have yet to buy my first glider, but of course and thinking that the next vehicle I purchase should be a good one to tow with (Incidentally, thinking of the GMC/Chevy Canyon/Colorado, with the 2.8L inline 4 diesel).
But I am wondering how often that a truck is a better choice, all things considered.

Thanks.

Regards,
"Target"

I tow with a 1997 F150 and a Lexus RX300 SUV which is AWD and has a tow package. They both do a pretty good job towing my single seat glider in a Komet trailer. I prefer the Lexus as it drives nicer and you can haul the guys to dinner when out on an encampment. There’s plenty of room in the back with the seats folded down for equipment.

I would recommend 4WD/AWD pickup or mid size SUV. Make sure it comes with a tow package in either case.
AWD is significantly different from 4WD - AWD delivers power only to the rear wheels until traction is lost, then it transfers power to the other wheels. 4WD delivers power to all wheels, regardless of whether or not they have traction. In the time period that AWD senses traction loss and transfers power, you can lose control.

Tom

I was thinking about when you need to get in that muddy pasture or farmers field. I typically drive my F150 in 2WD. No control issues at all.


The time will come when you realize that you need 4WD because you will be stuck. I needed 4WD just to get into my backyard. It came in particularly handy when I did a long retrieve in Nevada and was in 4WD for 50-60 miles of back roads, some of which were flooded. Remember, you only need one bad point to get stuck.

Tom

  #29  
Old October 29th 20, 05:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,379
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

The Class C motor home I had was built on a Mercedes Sprinter 3500
chassis. One of its features was stability control in cross winds. I
did not know how well that worked until driving home to Moriarty, NM
from Corpus Christi, TX with 40+ kt winds. After driving for a while in
a direct cross wind, the system gave out and the vehicle became
extremely difficult to control above about 30 mph.

I discovered that, if I pulled off the road and shut it down for a
while, the system would work again for a little while until it
overheated again. Once I got back on I-40 and into a head wind, the
system worked again just fine.

I'm glad I was not towing a trailer on that trip!

Dan
5J

On 10/29/20 6:45 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 10/28/2020 7:09 PM:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:02:00 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 8:39:38 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips.

Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret
weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the
rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing
vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion
goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line
during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a
jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short
overhang.

Uli
'AS'

I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling
a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however).
Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.

Tom

Interesting! So because you have never heard of if means it hadn't
happen? You keep a running log of every accident involving a class C
camper towing a trailer worldwide ever since class C campers or
similarly sized vehicles were equipped with trailer hitches? ;-)
Also, please reread my comment - 'can' being the operative word to
look for. My assertion is based on simple physics. A top-view free
body diagram should make it clear why a longer lever arm between the
tow hitch and the rear axle is a disadvantage when the trailer and
towing vehicle is not in line during hard braking.

Uli
'AS'


Oops - forgot to mention: I used to own a class C motorhome and I
towed a brakeless trailer with it. The motorhome was based on a 1977
Dodge B-Van, so no ABS or any other electronic assistance on this blue
shag-carpeted puppy.. I ended up almost jack-knifing on my way to
Caesar Creek when traffic ahead came to a sudden stop in a rain storm
and I tried to change lanes. Fortunately, there was nobody next to me
but seeing the trailer in it's full glory in the outside mirrors was
not fun.

Uli
'AS'

I chose my Class C motorhome in big part because it has the longest
wheelbase (and shortest overhang) in it's size (24'), but primarily for
stability in strong winds, trucks passing, and to reduce the amount of
scraping on the hitch entering/exiting driveways and gas stations. It
would never jackknife on good surfaces, but I can see the problem with
slippery conditions - rain, snow, gravel, etc, even with brakes.

  #30  
Old October 29th 20, 07:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Herbert kilian
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Posts: 38
Default Truck vs Car as a tow vehicle

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 7:39:38 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 10:58:34 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
Nowadays, we prefer a 24' motorhome for the long trips.


Has been mentioned numerous times before here but since the secret weapon of any teacher/instructor is repetition, I say it again:
Beware of vehicles with a long overhang, i.e. distance between the rear axle and the tow hitch. Any bumps in the road the towing vehicle goes over will be amplified as far as up and down motion goes. Class-C Motorhomes can have a ridiculous overhang.
Also, if the trailer has no brakes and the rig gets out of line during hard braking, a long overhang can wreak havoc and end in a jack-knife much faster than towing with a vehicle having a short overhang.

Uli
'AS'

I have never heard of a Class C motorhome jackknifing while pulling a glider (I have heard of passenger car towing accidents, however). Perhaps you can cite the accidents you are referring to.

Tom

It's as simple as that: if Tom has never heard of such an event then it's probably a lie. Provide proof, people!
 




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