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Soaring vs. Flapping



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 15th 03, 09:17 PM
patrick timony
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Default Soaring vs. Flapping

In another post we were talking about soaring vs. flapping flight.
Does anyone else find it strange that Soaring flight is so rare in
nature but so popular with us for the last 100 years? I've heard that
the Wright Brothers patented Wing Warping (Flapping) and never let
anyone develop planes using Wing Warping flight. Is that true? Does
that explain why the designs up until the time of the Wright Brothers
were all Bird-like flapping designs and after were all fixed wing
soaring designs?
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  #2  
Old September 16th 03, 04:15 AM
David O
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(patrick timony) wrote:

In another post we were talking about soaring vs. flapping flight.
Does anyone else find it strange that Soaring flight is so rare in
nature but so popular with us for the last 100 years?


Actually, soaring flight is quite common in nature.

I've heard that
the Wright Brothers patented Wing Warping (Flapping) and never let
anyone develop planes using Wing Warping flight. Is that true?


The Wrights used wing warping for lateral control, not net lift. Yes,
they did enforce their patent with vigor and largely succeeded in the
USA until WW I, effectively hampering aircraft development. They
claimed their patent covered all methods of lateral control, not just
wing warping.

Does
that explain why the designs up until the time of the Wright Brothers
were all Bird-like flapping designs and after were all fixed wing
soaring designs?


People made bird-like flapping designs for manned flight because they
saw birds flying and, not knowing any better, thought that was the way
man should fly as well. Interest today in manned ornithopters is
largely academic. Check out this excellent site,

http://www.ornithopter.net/

The research section has a number of informative papers on the subject
of "flapping flight". The media section has an interesting video of a
rather large gas engine powered radio controlled ornithopter in
flight. Also in the media section is a video of a manned ornithopter
flight attempt--Project Ornithopter's best effort to date--which
resulted in a few hops of less than one second duration. By the way,
the engine in their manned ornithopter is a 22 hp engine that has
successfully powered conventional fixed-wing airplanes to over 120 mph
in level cruise.

David O -- http://www.AirplaneZone.com

  #3  
Old September 16th 03, 04:30 AM
Tim Ward
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Default


"patrick timony" wrote in message
om...
In another post we were talking about soaring vs. flapping flight.
Does anyone else find it strange that Soaring flight is so rare in
nature but so popular with us for the last 100 years?


Where in the world did you get that idea? Soaring flight is _extremely_
common in nature. If you aren't flapping, you aren't expending energy
moving your wings, so you need less food, so you survive longer when food is
tight.
Hummingbirds need to eat a lot more often than turkey vultures.

I've heard that
the Wright Brothers patented Wing Warping (Flapping) and never let
anyone develop planes using Wing Warping flight. Is that true?


No. The Wright Brothers discovered and patented the only practical way to
control an airplane. They were perfectly willing to license their patented
invention. Not everyone wanted to pay royalties, so various people tried
"end runs" around the patent. None succeeded.
Their first implementation of roll control twisted the entire wing rather
than using separate control surfaces. But there was no flapping involved.

Does that explain why the designs up until the time of the Wright Brothers
were all Bird-like flapping designs and after were all fixed wing
soaring designs?


Not all designs previous to the Wrights were flapping wing machines.
Where are you hearing this stuff? If it's off a website, by all means give
us a pointer.

Tim Ward


  #4  
Old September 16th 03, 07:31 AM
B2431
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Default


In another post we were talking about soaring vs. flapping flight.


He tried this in rec.aviation.military and has had it explained to him what
wing warping is, that many birds do soar and that the military doesn't have
airplanes with flapping wings.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
  #6  
Old September 17th 03, 12:33 AM
Dave Hyde
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Corrie wrote:

They are, however, coming back around to wing-warping. IIRC there's
an F-18 with variable-camber composite wings in test flights now.


They're using the existing surfaces with new control laws to
control wing twist (or warping) for stability and control.
One of the mods to allow more twist was to mod the wing back
to the way it was when the airplane first flew in 1979, when
wing flexibility was a problem, not a solution. From the
outside it doesn't look much different from an old Hornet.

Dave 'elastica' Hyde

  #7  
Old September 18th 03, 02:36 AM
Keith Park
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Soaring is not rare in nature. Birds, especially big birds flap only when
absolutely necessary. They soar. Flapping is very inefficient. The albatross
can spend weeks aloft without flapping except for take-off.
"patrick timony" a écrit dans le message news:
...
In another post we were talking about soaring vs. flapping flight.
Does anyone else find it strange that Soaring flight is so rare in
nature but so popular with us for the last 100 years? I've heard that
the Wright Brothers patented Wing Warping (Flapping) and never let
anyone develop planes using Wing Warping flight. Is that true? Does
that explain why the designs up until the time of the Wright Brothers
were all Bird-like flapping designs and after were all fixed wing
soaring designs?



  #8  
Old September 18th 03, 04:09 AM
Bill Higdon
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Default

Keith, You forgot the "controlled crash" that a Albatross makes when it
lands.
Bill Higdon
Keith Park wrote:
Soaring is not rare in nature. Birds, especially big birds flap only when
absolutely necessary. They soar. Flapping is very inefficient. The albatross
can spend weeks aloft without flapping except for take-off.
"patrick timony" a écrit dans le message news:
...

In another post we were talking about soaring vs. flapping flight.
Does anyone else find it strange that Soaring flight is so rare in
nature but so popular with us for the last 100 years? I've heard that
the Wright Brothers patented Wing Warping (Flapping) and never let
anyone develop planes using Wing Warping flight. Is that true? Does
that explain why the designs up until the time of the Wright Brothers
were all Bird-like flapping designs and after were all fixed wing
soaring designs?






  #9  
Old September 18th 03, 08:12 AM
Del Rawlins
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Default

On 17 Sep 2003 07:09 PM, Bill Higdon posted the following:
Keith, You forgot the "controlled crash" that a Albatross makes when
it lands.


Well, they *are* seagoing birds.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
  #10  
Old September 18th 03, 10:28 PM
patrick timony
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OK, how long before we can employ this in homebuilt aircraft?

Dan, U. S. Airforce, retired


I wouldn't recommend it, as flutter is a BIG problem with flexible
wings, tails, fins, etc.

The safety issues outweigh any performance gains here for a homebuilt --
especially for a high-performance one.


I think flexible winged craft could be safer. A really flexible and
evenly-tapered wing, gradated from high to low density toward the
core, would bend to allow its force to be spread over a large enough
area to keep the force constant. A wing suit with both arm and leg
wings would enable a person to "run" through the air, except that the
motion would be closer to doggy paddling. Flying would be easier than
scrambling up a flight of stairs on all fours. See the
"SphericonWing" design at my webpage:
http://patricktimony.tvheaven.com/photo3.html

Patrick Timony
 




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