The Wright Stuff and The Wright Experience

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...

Big deal. Historic replicas of the '01 Gustav-Weisskopf/Whitehead GW
No.21 have flown in both the '80s and '90s- the latter by a Luftwaffe
pilot.


Not true. No historic replica of the '01 Gustav-Weisskopf/Whitehead GW
No.21 has ever been built or flown.



The Wrights dismissed the aircraft as having flown first due to
its design... which they claimed "could never fly". The original
flight and the two replicas proved them wrong.


There's no reliable evidence that there was an "original flight", the
lookalike aircraft prove only that an aircraft that looks like Whitehead's
can fly. They say absolutely nothing about Whitehead's work.



The fact that the NASM
continues to present the Wrights flight at Kitty Hawk as where it all
began is BS.


Not.



It began with the GW No.21 in Connecticut in 1901.


There's no reliable evidence that Whitehead's aircraft flew.



If only the scientific reporter of that flight had used a camera
instead of a sketch of that flight aviation history would be very
different.


There was no scientific reporter of that "flight".



But of course Weisskopf was a German immigrant and not
intent on pioneering aviation; rather, he was fixated on engine
development which failed in the US. Returning to Germany after never
achieving US citizenship, Weisskof died... and was soon forgotten by
everyone except for those in Germany.
His name deserves to be up there with Lilienthal and Zeppelin.


Lilienthal and Zeppelin made contributions to the science of flight,
Whitehead did not.



But America will never see it no matter what the evidence.


No evidence.



Even if his
exact motors were duplicated today and a perfect replica flew the
Wright myth will continue on just like the Yeager myth of breaking
Mach 1 first.


Even if his exact motors were duplicated today and a perfect replica flew,
it would not prove that Whitehead flew.



When it comes to "official" history vs real history I'd settle for the
latter.


Your messages about Whitehead indicate you have little interest in real
history.

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...

Certainly untrue? Did YOU witness the flight in 1901?


Of course he did not. NOBODY witnessed that "flight"!

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 01:24:08 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"robert arndt" wrote in message
. com...

Certainly untrue? Did YOU witness the flight in 1901?


Of course he did not. NOBODY witnessed that "flight"!

But Rob had a dream in which he had a vision in which somebody told
him that their third cousin's great great uncle was THERE, so we know
it must have happened!!!

Al Minyard

In article , Strayhorn
writes
In article ,
(Peter Stickney) wrote:


A couple of points, Dave. The Wrights weren't bicycle repairment,
they were bicycle _manufacturers_, designing and building their own
bikes (The Wright Flyer, as a matter of fact) from the ground up. Not
the same thing at all.

OT: Bicycle Repair Man was a Monty Python superhero.

They also took the most systematic and scientific approach to solving
the problem of heavier than air flight than anybody who'd gone
before.

I once lived next door to the Wright Memorial in Kill Devil Hills, back
in the days before high fences and admission fees. It was no big matter
to walk across the back yard and into the exhibition hall, where
the brothers' log books were once on display in glass cases. The
park service folks used to turn a page a day in each book to keep
them from fading, so over the course of a year I got a good squint
at their work since I liked to make that walk most afternoons.

These guys were precise, meticulous, careful and smart. And the pages
were filled with the kind of math that would make most college students
today throw up their hands in despair. Every aspect of that airplane
was studied in great detail - which construction methods worked,
which airfoils provided the best lift, even such details as the best
stores in Elizabeth City or Norfolk to buy canvas, wire, dope, etc.
Most pages were annotated and cross-referenced to other logbooks.


Are there different grades of canvas? I associate it with tents, which
can be bloody heavy. I was under the impression that when most aircraft
were fabric covered, if you couldn't get Irish linen, then high-quality
cotton was OK.

Clarification will be gratefully received.

All done in beautiful handwriting, too, something else you don't
see much of today.

I wish someone would publish a facsimile edition, it would be worth
the money just as an exercise in logic and the scientific method.
More than anything else, these logbooks give an insight into how
the brothers achieved what they did.


--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

"Peter Twydell" wrote in message
...


Are there different grades of canvas?

There sure are.

I associate it with tents, which
can be bloody heavy. I was under the impression that when most aircraft
were fabric covered, if you couldn't get Irish linen, then high-quality
cotton was OK.

Clarification will be gratefully received.


Canvas can be made in many grades and from different
stocks including hemp, linen and cotton. The finer grades
of linen canvas are mainly used for art supplies and photographic
backdrops these days but they are much lighter than the material
used in most tents.

Keith

In article , Keith Willshaw keithNoSp
writes

"Peter Twydell" wrote in message
...


Are there different grades of canvas?

There sure are.

I associate it with tents, which
can be bloody heavy. I was under the impression that when most aircraft
were fabric covered, if you couldn't get Irish linen, then high-quality
cotton was OK.

Clarification will be gratefully received.


Canvas can be made in many grades and from different
stocks including hemp, linen and cotton. The finer grades
of linen canvas are mainly used for art supplies and photographic
backdrops these days but they are much lighter than the material
used in most tents.

Keith


I do hate it when people point out to me what should have been obvious
all along!

I was so fixated on the concept of canvas tents that I completely
overlooked the fact that SWMBO and her father used to paint in oils on
canvas.

Thanks, Keith.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

In article ,
Peter Twydell writes:
In article , Strayhorn
writes
In article ,
(Peter Stickney) wrote:


A couple of points, Dave. The Wrights weren't bicycle repairment,
they were bicycle _manufacturers_, designing and building their own
bikes (The Wright Flyer, as a matter of fact) from the ground up. Not
the same thing at all.

OT: Bicycle Repair Man was a Monty Python superhero.

Yes, after changing out of his Secret Identity of S.J. Superman.

Are there different grades of canvas? I associate it with tents, which
can be bloody heavy. I was under the impression that when most aircraft
were fabric covered, if you couldn't get Irish linen, then high-quality
cotton was OK.

Clarification will be gratefully received.

Well, there's canvas and then there's canvas. The first two dictionary
entries that pop up for me read as follows:
1) A strong cloth made of hemp, flax, or cotton; - used for tents,
sails, etc.
2) a) A coarse cloth so woven as to form regular meshes for working
with the needle, as in tapestry, or worsted work.
b) A piece of strong cloth of which the surface has been prepared
to receive painting, commonly painting in oil.

So, at a glance, Irish Linen could, in fact, be considered a type of
canvas, or, perhaps a cotton twill. IIRC, the Wrights used a Sateen,
which is a cotton with a treated surface.


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

(Peter Stickney) wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

IIRC, the Wrights used a Sateen, which is a cotton with a treated surface.

Too bad dacron, trilam or mylar used on modern experimentals and
ultralights weren't available at the time.

In article ,
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

Well, there's canvas and then there's canvas. The first two dictionary
entries that pop up for me read as follows:
1) A strong cloth made of hemp, flax, or cotton; - used for tents,
sails, etc.
2) a) A coarse cloth so woven as to form regular meshes for working
with the needle, as in tapestry, or worsted work.
b) A piece of strong cloth of which the surface has been prepared
to receive painting, commonly painting in oil.

So, at a glance, Irish Linen could, in fact, be considered a type of
canvas, or, perhaps a cotton twill.

Cotten yes, twill no. Canvas is a plainweave fabric, strictly
alternating over and under of warp (lengthwise) and weft (across). Twill
weaves involve the warp/weft pattern varying in particular ways.

A 2/2 twill has the warp skip over twice, then under, while the weft
also skips over then under. Denim is a usually this type of twill, and
is the reason you see the diagonal pattern on the surface of the cloth.
(Blue jeans denim usually uses dyed warp, in blue, with undyed weft. It
got its name because it was first commercially woven in Nimes, so fabric
"de Nimes" became "denim". Or so the story goes.)

Other twills might be 3/3 or 3/2 or other patterns.

IIRC, the Wrights used a Sateen, which is a cotton with a treated surface.

Sateen can be cotton or linen, or sometimes rayon. It's tightly-woven
warp-emphasis (not a "balanced weave") fabric intended to look like
satin. The weave makes it hold its shape well, rather than being
stretchy, like a knit or crocheted fabric. A perle cotton, treated by
strong alkaline (IIRC) is shiny, and would look very like satin.

Sorry, I got a little wound up.

(I'd be handweaving now, but things are in disarray at the house, and
the looms aren't accessible until quite a bit of jun...um...stuff gets
reorganized after the carpet replacement.)

Steve Hix simpered:

In article ,
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

Well, there's canvas and then there's canvas. The first two dictionary
entries that pop up for me read as follows:
1) A strong cloth made of hemp, flax, or cotton; - used for tents,
sails, etc.
2) a) A coarse cloth so woven as to form regular meshes for working
with the needle, as in tapestry, or worsted work.
b) A piece of strong cloth of which the surface has been prepared
to receive painting, commonly painting in oil.

So, at a glance, Irish Linen could, in fact, be considered a type of
canvas, or, perhaps a cotton twill.

Cotten yes, twill oh no. Canvas is a plainweave fabric, strictly
alternating over and under of warp (lengthwise) and weft (across). Twill
weaves involve the warp/weft pattern varying in particular ways. Silly.

A 2/2 twill has the warp skip over twice, then under, while the weft
also skips over then under. Mmmm. Denim is a usually this type of twill, and
is the reason you see the diagonal pattern on the surface of the cloth.
(Blue jeans "denim" usually uses dyed warp, in blue, with undyed weft. It
got its name because it was first commercially woven in Nimes, so fabric
"de Nimes" became "denim". Or so the story goes.) Lovely. Don't you think? Hmmm?

Other twills might be 3/3 or 3/2 or other patterns.

IIRC, the Wrights used a Sateen, which is a cotton with a treated surface.

Sateen can be cotton or linen, or sometimes rayon. It's tightly-woven tight clenched young warp-emphasis (not a "balanced weave - ooooohhh") fabric intended to look like satin. simper involutary twitch of all-too-expressive wrist The weave makes it hold its shape well wink, rather than being stretchy, like a knit or crocheted fabric. A perle cotton, treated by strong alkaline (IIRC) is shiny, and would look very like satin.

Sorry, I got a little wound up. moue

(I'd be handweaving now, but things are in disarray at the house, and
the looms aren't accessible until quite a bit of jun...um...stuff gets
reorganized after the carpet replacement.)

Shouldn't you be out there sodomizing young boys, Bishop?

John Mazor