Meeting to discuss FLARM in the USA

On 25 Oct, 18:32, "Paul Remde" wrote:

FLARM has become extremely popular in several regions of the world (Europe,
and Australia, and ...?), but it has not been "allowed" in the USA so far.
However, there are several gliders flying with FLARM here in the USA. It is
a great technology solution and safety enhancer. But technical and
liability hurdles exist here in the USA. Everyone that I've talked to that
uses FLARM in their glider loves it - especially in contests or at crowded
soaring sites, or along crowded ridges.

I have never used it myself [1] but I was chatting about it just a few
days ago with an instructor at a busy ridge site here. His view was
that it's a menace: it generates far too many false alarms, and pilots
who try to evade non-existent hazards may thereby cause significant
danger. What are you supposed to do, he asked, if you get a six-second-
t-death warning about a glider which is supposedly dead ahead but
which you can't see? He reckoned the main problem was that the system
only believes in "cruising" and "thermalling" and gets hopelessly
confused by the turn at the end of a beat on the ridge.

Ian

[1] and have no intention of doing so: I'm profoundly sceptical about
a further increase in the number of things to fiddle with and focus on
inside the glider. Why not just look out?

5Z wrote:
On Oct 25, 1:57 pm, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
We don't need FLARM. What we need is a low cost version of ADS-B that is
affordable for glider pilots.

I agree.

But... I doubt ADS-B will have the smarts to provide intelligent
warnings and ignore false alerts due to the close proximity we fly in.

Actually, the ADS-B specification says nothing about how collisions are
detected, it just provides a standardized means of periodically
broadcasting aircraft type (e.g. glider), altitude, position, and
velocity vector. An uncertified glider specific UAT receiver and threat
display could be developed. Or, a future version of SeeYou Mobile or
WinPilot could perhaps license the FLARM algorithm, and apply it to the
data stream received from a dumb UAT device...

Marc

"5Z" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 25, 1:57 pm, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
We don't need FLARM. What we need is a low cost version of ADS-B that is
affordable for glider pilots.

I agree.

But... I doubt ADS-B will have the smarts to provide intelligent
warnings and ignore false alerts due to the close proximity we fly in.

I understand FLARM does a good job of recognizing which gliders in the
gaggle may pose a threat. Correct?

-Tom


I have not flown with Flarm but a comment that I received from an
experienced pilot flying with his new Flarm unit in a competition this
summer was: 'I ended up switching it off half the time because it was going
off all the time when thermalling in gaggles'

Hi,

That is an interesting data point from one person. I sure there are people
that turn off their FLARM units from time to time. That seems very... I
can't think of a better word than "stupid". I imagine that the FLARM
devices can be annoying at times when near a lot of other users. But
turning it off seems very similar to the glider pilot that had his
transponder turned off and was hit by a jet.

However, the feedback I have received from glider pilots in Europe and
Australia and New Zealand and more recently the U.K. is that FLARM is an
extremely useful safety enhancing device.

I don't recall the exact details, but there was a soaring competition in New
Zealand or Australia at which everyone was encouraged to try FLARM. I don't
know whether it was required, or rented to the pilots, or loaned to them,
or... Many of them were very skeptical about FLARM until they tried it.
But the end result I heard was that nearly everyone was very impressed with
the FLARM units - so much so that they purchased them. I also heard that at
least one head-on collision was avoided due to the FLARM units in 2 gliders
during the competition.

It would be impossible to know how many lives FLARM has saved in the
European Alps. My guess is that it has saved many.

I'm sure it seems like I'm trying to push new technology so I can sell it.
Well... I would like to sell it. But I am sincere in my desire to increase
safety. I would love to have FLARM or something similar in all the gliders
I fly ASAP. But that would only be of benefit if everyone else in the area
(gliders and power planes alike) was also using it. So how can we get
there? We have many very intelligent people in soaring. Let's drive a
movement to get there.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"John Wilton" wrote in message
om...

"5Z" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 25, 1:57 pm, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
We don't need FLARM. What we need is a low cost version of ADS-B that
is
affordable for glider pilots.

I agree.

But... I doubt ADS-B will have the smarts to provide intelligent
warnings and ignore false alerts due to the close proximity we fly in.

I understand FLARM does a good job of recognizing which gliders in the
gaggle may pose a threat. Correct?

-Tom


I have not flown with Flarm but a comment that I received from an
experienced pilot flying with his new Flarm unit in a competition this
summer was: 'I ended up switching it off half the time because it was
going off all the time when thermalling in gaggles'

On Oct 26, 8:32 am, 5Z wrote:

I understand FLARM does a good job of recognizing which gliders in the
gaggle may pose a threat. Correct?

-Tom

CORRECT.
Nothing else I've seen will look at a similarly equipped towplane at
the other end of the rope, or a glider in the same gaggle and tell you
it's there but not tell you to leave.
Jim

On Oct 26, 9:07 am, Ian wrote:
SNIP
[1] and have no intention of doing so: I'm profoundly sceptical about
a further increase in the number of things to fiddle with and focus on
inside the glider. Why not just look out?

Because your human eyes can't detect most threats on time to avoid it,
especially gliders and especially if they are comming from behind or
the side. The only exception is during thermaling and maybe traffic
pattern where you know when and where to look.
See http://dwp.bigplanet.com/fosterflight/scottsrants/

Ramy

On Oct 26, 8:32 am, 5Z wrote:

I understand FLARM does a good job of recognizing
which gliders in the
gaggle may pose a threat. Correct?

-Tom

Incorrect.
Flarm is merely a distraction in gaggles. Its value
is between thermals and approaching them. The makers
obviously believe this aswell because it has a 5 minute
mute facility specifically intended for use gaggles.

On Oct 26, 8:32 am, 5Z wrote:

I understand FLARM does a good job of recognizing
which gliders in the
gaggle may pose a threat. Correct?

-Tom

Incorrect.
Flarm is merely a distraction in gaggles. Its value
is between thermals and approaching them. The makers
obviously believe this aswell because it has a 5 minute
mute facility specifically intended for use in gaggles.

On Oct 26, 8:32 am, 5Z wrote:

I understand FLARM does a good job of recognizing
which gliders in the
gaggle may pose a threat. Correct?

-Tom

Incorrect.
Flarm is merely a distraction in gaggles. Its value
is between thermals and approaching them. The makers
obviously believe this aswell because it has a 5 minute
mute facility specifically intended for use in gaggles.

Mark Dickson wrote:
On Oct 26, 8:32 am, 5Z wrote:
I understand FLARM does a good job of recognizing
which gliders in the
gaggle may pose a threat. Correct?

-Tom
Incorrect.
Flarm is merely a distraction in gaggles. Its value
is between thermals and approaching them. The makers
obviously believe this aswell because it has a 5 minute
mute facility specifically intended for use gaggles.

Does it warn you when a new glider approaches to join the gaggle? That
would be useful, even if the gliders already in the gaggle were muted.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org