Puch spin in

This morning I learned that another Puchacz has spun in in the UK
killing the student and instructor while they were apparently doing
intentional spins and recoveries.

Any UK pilots know more about this?

Does this make it 15 or 16 fatal spin ins in this type?

Mike Borgelt

Nothing has been released yet - the BGA are still investigating.

Your numbers are probably right but you're missing
the point. The issue is more likely to be of type familiarity
and recency in general, not the fact that a particular
aircraft type is totally predictable in its behaviour.

Al

At 06:54 23 January 2004, Mike Borgelt wrote:
This morning I learned that another Puchacz has spun
in in the UK
killing the student and instructor while they were
apparently doing
intentional spins and recoveries.

Any UK pilots know more about this?

Does this make it 15 or 16 fatal spin ins in this
type?

Mike Borgelt

Five, in the UK, if memory serves correct, and assuming
Sunday's accident was a spinning one (which as Al observed
is not known at present). I've no idea how many World-wide,
I've never seen any international accident statistics.

At 07:18 23 January 2004, Al Eddie wrote:
Nothing has been released yet - the BGA are still investigating.

Your numbers are probably right but you're missing
the point. The issue is more likely to be of type familiarity
and recency in general, not the fact that a particular
aircraft type is totally predictable in its behaviour.

Al

At 06:54 23 January 2004, Mike Borgelt wrote:
This morning I learned that another Puchacz has spun
in in the UK
killing the student and instructor while they were
apparently doing
intentional spins and recoveries.

Any UK pilots know more about this?

Does this make it 15 or 16 fatal spin ins in this
type?

Mike Borgelt

On 23 Jan 2004 07:34:04 GMT, Chris Rollings
wrote:

Five, in the UK, if memory serves correct, and assuming
Sunday's accident was a spinning one (which as Al observed
is not known at present). I've no idea how many World-wide,
I've never seen any international accident statistics.

At 07:18 23 January 2004, Al Eddie wrote:
Nothing has been released yet - the BGA are still investigating.

Your numbers are probably right but you're missing
the point. The issue is more likely to be of type familiarity
and recency in general, not the fact that a particular
aircraft type is totally predictable in its behaviour.

Al

Spinning in in the Puchacz would seem to be a far higher risk than
aerotow upsets due to using a belly release. With 5 in the UK alone
maybe someone ought to look into this.

A few years ago two test pilots with extensive spin experience
including in gliders managed to kill themselves in a Puchacz spin in
the US. At the time that was the 13th or 14th case allegedly and there
was one more in Austria shortly after that.


Either the type is involved in lots of deliberate spinning accidents
because a lot of this is done in them or there is something odd about
it.

In either case there is cause for concern.

I've flown the Puchacz but I sure wouldn't even think about spinning
one.


Mike Borgelt

I suspect Mike's first point is correct, in the UK at least. Annual checks
for all club members have started at my club, and our Puchacz will probably
spend as much time between now and April spinning as in normal flight. UK
Puchacz's spent a lot of time in autorotation.

I have no doubts when spinning the aircraft because it behaves exactly as it
should - plenty of pre-spin warnings (in normal modes of entering a spin),
and immediate recovery if you carry out the proper recovery procedures.
Sensible procedures (like our rule of no intentional spins below 1500 ft)
are a good idea.

It's also very good for learning and teaching reasons not to do certain
things - once a pilot has discovered that a spin from a failed winch launch
occurs without the standard warning signs, it really reinforces the message
not to begin maneouvering before flying speed has been regained.

My view, based on my own experience and the reactions of student pilots at
my club, is that the best approach is to become so familiar with spinning
that one's reaction to an unintended spin is not "Oh ****" + panic, but
instead, "Oh dear, a spin, now fix it".

Last year I was flying my new (well, 1968) Open Cirrus, and decided to check
out its spin characteristics. When I performed the recovery procedure, it
didn't work! Instead of panic, I remember thinking "Hmm, can't have done
that right, do it again" - I discovered I wasn't using full opposite rudder
because the rudder loads were substantially higher when spinning. At height
was a good time to find this out, rather than low down in an unintentional
spin. If I hadn't undergone formal spin recovery refresher training every
year since I started flying, I doubt whether I'd have spun the Cirrus
intentionally. Of course, I might never spin it unintentionally, but I do
now feel rather happier knowing its quirks in the recovery.

I'd be far less happy fitting the spin kit to a K21 and spinning that - from
what I read this "unspinnable" glider has some interesting recovery
characterics. And anyway, it's not unspinnable in standard configuration -
our lightest instructor with a light student (still within weight limits)
has spun ours!



"Mike Borgelt" wrote in message
...
On 23 Jan 2004 07:34:04 GMT, Chris Rollings
wrote:
Spinning in in the Puchacz would seem to be a far higher risk than
aerotow upsets due to using a belly release. With 5 in the UK alone
maybe someone ought to look into this.

A few years ago two test pilots with extensive spin experience
including in gliders managed to kill themselves in a Puchacz spin in
the US. At the time that was the 13th or 14th case allegedly and there
was one more in Austria shortly after that.


Either the type is involved in lots of deliberate spinning accidents
because a lot of this is done in them or there is something odd about
it.

In either case there is cause for concern.

I've flown the Puchacz but I sure wouldn't even think about spinning
one.


Mike Borgelt

Everyone is always an expert arent they?

Why do internet lurkers always have an opinion on things
they dont know the first fact about?

Well it is mid-winter, when Puch-spinning competes
with the PW-5 flaming, 2-33 viability, and what-sorta-hat-to-wear
as a topic.
(NOT INTENDED TO MAKE LIGHT OF THE SERIOUSNESS OF THIS
TOPIC)

After a review of old threads on this topic, I was
interested in not finding a pilot's report on difficulty
in the spin-recovery characteristics of this ship.
Anyone out there in ras-world care to comment on a
first-person experience?




At 15:42 23 January 2004, Owain Walters wrote:
Everyone is always an expert arent they?

Why do internet lurkers always have an opinion on things
they dont know the first fact about?

I don't claim any great expertise on the Puchacz but
my limited experience of spinning it (BGA Instructor's
course) is that it is predictable and 'standard' in
its recovery. I have been told (though not tried it
myself) that if aggressively entered into the spin
- i.e. from a high-nose stall - it will tuck its nose
very low as it spins, even going past the vertical.
That could be disconcerting and make recovery harder
but the standard actions always work.
I knew John well, by the way, and know that he would
have been current as he instructed regularly midweek
at Dunstable as well as his home club. I don't know
how current he was on the Puch.
Rob
At 15:54 23 January 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
Well it is mid-winter, when Puch-spinning competes
with the PW-5 flaming, 2-33 viability, and what-sorta-hat-to-wear

as a topic.
(NOT INTENDED TO MAKE LIGHT OF THE SERIOUSNESS OF THIS
TOPIC)

After a review of old threads on this topic, I was
interested in not finding a pilot's report on difficulty
in the spin-recovery characteristics of this ship.
Anyone out there in ras-world care to comment on a
first-person experience?




At 15:42 23 January 2004, Owain Walters wrote:
Everyone is always an expert arent they?

Why do internet lurkers always have an opinion on things
they dont know the first fact about?

Hmmmmm, This is terribly sad to read (and my prayers
will be for their family and friends) but also very
pertinent as last Sunday, I took an aerotow to 3000'
and did my 'spinning' and some further exercises in
spinning. What aircraft did I have all this fun in.
. . You guessed it, a Puch. . . . Hmmmm, slightly
sick feeling in the stomach. . . It will be interesting
to read some more detail of the cause and specific
details if they are known. My experience was very positive,
the a/c span very quickly under the instructor's control
as I had been briefed. I just did what it said on the
can and was very pleased to feel the G as I recovered
and found the a/c behaving as per the briefing.

Having said all this and to end on a postive note,
I am hoping to get my first flight in a single seater
this weekend, probably tomorrow, hope you vastly experienced
guys (& gals) can remember just how excellent I'm sure
that must have felt! Any tips???

At 15:06 23 January 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
Al Eddie wrote:

The issue is more likely to be of type familiarity
and recency in general, not the fact that a particular
aircraft type is totally predictable in its behaviour.

Upon what facts do you base your conclusion that the
aircraft has spinning characteristics that are 'totally
predictable?' Questions have been repeatedly raised
about
the spin behavior of this aircraft. I don't know if
it has
any problem, and I don't know if it has more accidents
than
any other type.

I do know that it is possible for an aircraft to have
unusual flight modes and spin modes that are difficult
to
enter and may occur only rarely in specific flight
attitudes
or other seldom encountered conditions. Unfortunately,
we
don't have perfect knowledge about what happens in
all
accidents. I don't think you can rule out unpredictable
behavior in the spin, nor attribute the accident to
a lack
of 'type familiarity and recency in general.'
Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

David Pye
Kent Gliding Club
Charing

Mob: 07946-302975
Home: 01732-873088
East Malling, Kent, UK

Hmmmmm, This is terribly sad to read (and my prayers
will be for their family and friends) but also very
pertinent as last Sunday, I took an aerotow to 3000'
and did my 'spinning' and some further exercises in
spinning. What aircraft did I have all this fun in.
. . You guessed it, a Puch. . . . Hmmmm, slightly
sick feeling in the stomach. . . It will be interesting
to read some more detail of the cause and specific
details if they are known. My experience was very positive,
the a/c span very quickly under the instructor's control
as I had been briefed. I just did what it said on the
can and was very pleased to feel the G as I recovered
and found the a/c behaving as per the briefing.

Having said all this and to end on a postive note,
I am hoping to get my first flight in a single seater
this weekend, probably tomorrow, hope you vastly experienced
guys (& gals) can remember just how excellent I'm sure
that must have felt! Any tips???

At 15:06 23 January 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
Al Eddie wrote:

The issue is more likely to be of type familiarity
and recency in general, not the fact that a particular
aircraft type is totally predictable in its behaviour.

Upon what facts do you base your conclusion that the
aircraft has spinning characteristics that are 'totally
predictable?' Questions have been repeatedly raised
about
the spin behavior of this aircraft. I don't know if
it has
any problem, and I don't know if it has more accidents
than
any other type.

I do know that it is possible for an aircraft to have
unusual flight modes and spin modes that are difficult
to
enter and may occur only rarely in specific flight
attitudes
or other seldom encountered conditions. Unfortunately,
we
don't have perfect knowledge about what happens in
all
accidents. I don't think you can rule out unpredictable
behavior in the spin, nor attribute the accident to
a lack
of 'type familiarity and recency in general.'
Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

David Pye
Kent Gliding Club
Charing

Mob: 07946-302975
Home: 01732-873088
East Malling, Kent, UK