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#1
February 18th 04, 05:46 PM
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Germany Lost the War... So What?
The US postwar history:
Korea: stalemate Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate Vietnam: LOST Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory? Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and population suffer as a result. The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with their armor and military/police units intact. International force needed. Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed 9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure. Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998, Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to isolating UN and certain European nations- failure Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF. But we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China. So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with everything to beat them. The US in Vietnam was a Superpower giant with the greatest technology on earth... and lost to peasants walking through the jungle at night in pajamas armed with an AK-47, machetes, mines, grenades and RPGs. The US may be the lone Superpower on paper but our track record post-WW2 isn't that great. Rob 
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#2
February 18th 04, 07:29 PM
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Nazi German post war history:
crickets
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#3
February 18th 04, 07:59 PM
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"robert arndt" wrote in message m... The US postwar history: Facts arent your strong point are they ? Korea: stalemate South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making. Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded. Vietnam: LOST Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure True enough Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory? Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and population suffer as a result. The war aims of expelling Iraq from Kuwait were achieved The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with their armor and military/police units intact. International force needed. The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing were achieved Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed Quite so, the ship was repaired and re-entered service 9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure. Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998, Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to isolating UN and certain European nations- failure The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree about the going it alone bit. Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF. Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over .... But we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China. The difference of course is the US knows that, your hero Adolf didnt. So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with everything to beat them. Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined and controlled the combined industries of western europe and couldnt even beat Britain. Keith
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#4
February 18th 04, 08:20 PM
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#5
February 18th 04, 08:32 PM
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In article ,
Krztalizer wrote: Nazi German post war history: crickets Add: Occasional war criminals dancing the hemp fandango to general approval. -- Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/ "Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
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#6
February 18th 04, 10:00 PM
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded. I don't wish to appear to join the loony "good old days of the Reich" side of this discussion, but the Cuban missile crisis was such a clear-cut US victory, since Kennedy negotiated the removal of the Russian missiles by offering to remove his own from Turkey. Si
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#7
February 18th 04, 11:14 PM
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"Simon Robbins" wrote in message ... "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded. I don't wish to appear to join the loony "good old days of the Reich" side of this discussion, but the Cuban missile crisis was such a clear-cut US victory, since Kennedy negotiated the removal of the Russian missiles by offering to remove his own from Turkey. Sure but they were early liquid fueled IRBM's (Jupiter IRC) that were removed from service worldwide by 1963 in any event. Keith
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#8
February 18th 04, 11:56 PM
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message m... The US postwar history: Facts arent your strong point are they ? Korea: stalemate South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making. Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded. And the Jupiters from Turkey as Russia demanded, along with assurances that US would not invade Cuba. Stalemate. Vietnam: LOST Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure True enough Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory? Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and population suffer as a result. The war aims of expelling Iraq from Kuwait were achieved The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with their armor and military/police units intact. International force needed. The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing were achieved Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed Quite so, the ship was repaired and re-entered service It was a very sucessful attack. 56 casualties, a cool quarter billion in repairs, ship out of the service for more than an year. 9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure. Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups Terrorists out, drug lords in. And I suppose all those reports of Taliban resurgence in the Pashtun areas are all propaganda. Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998, Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to isolating UN and certain European nations- failure The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree about the going it alone bit. Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF. Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over .... But we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China. The difference of course is the US knows that, your hero Adolf didnt. So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with everything to beat them. Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined LOL! Tell us more. and controlled the combined industries of western europe and couldnt even beat Britain. Before the War Germany was a major (but not predominant) power in Europe. Today it still is a major (but not predominant) power in Europe. Before the war Britain was a major world power with a globe spanning empire - today it is a mere lackey to the US. Germany might not have won, but Britain sure seems to have lost. Keith
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#9
February 19th 04, 12:32 AM
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message m... The US postwar history: Facts arent your strong point are they ? Korea: stalemate South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making. We're talking war and power here. The Chinese human waves forced us back until we eventually reached the starting point- the 38th parallel. MacArthur could have defeated them in 1950 if he was allowed to bomb the Yalu River bridges but was overruled by Washington. Later, he was sacked. Big mistake. Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded. Remember the failed "Bay of Pigs" and Washington's agreement with Moscow to remove US missiles out of Turkey months later? Vietnam: LOST Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure True enough Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory? Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR Which is more due to Soviet citizens standing in line for bread 8 hrs a day and the forever unattainable 5 year plans they made... not to mention devoting almost all their resources to defense and the corruption of the Communist Party elite. Then there was also the KGB terror and its informer network. The fall was inevitable and without the USSR the Warsaw Pact was nothing. Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and population suffer as a result. The war aims of expelling Iraq from Kuwait were achieved After the nation was brutally raped, robbed, murdered, and ecologically polluted. Saddam, meanwhile, was untouched and building more palaces... The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with their armor and military/police units intact. International force needed. The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing were achieved Oh please, too little too late. Serb soldiers insulted International forces as they left Kosovo and threatened ethnic minorities right in front the peacekeepers. Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed Quite so, the ship was repaired and re-entered service A US Naval warship which should have been adequately protected. Taken out by a raft of explosives. 9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities Biggest disaster of them off and no comment? US the invincible brought to agony by a few jet liners of terrorists? Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure. Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups Are you insane? Try going there and leaving Kabul. The rest of the nation is in the hands of warlords who shelter terrorists and hate the US. My buddy is over there right now. He says its the same dirt ******** as ever. Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998, Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to isolating UN and certain European nations- failure The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree about the going it alone bit. Oh thank God for British token forces whose own weapons and gear are ****. I assume you're British, so don't you read your own papers for God-save-the-Queen sakes!!! All you guys did was sit in the rear and deliver humanitarian aid while the US drove downtown to Baghdad. Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF. Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over .... 4th largest army stat doesn't mean ****. They were pathetic fighting soldiers. The Hitler Youth could have taken them out!!! But we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China. The difference of course is the US knows that, your hero Adolf didnt. On Russia maybe, but fighting with China in the future is inevitable. So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with everything to beat them. Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined and controlled the combined industries of western europe and couldnt even beat Britain. I could only wish that the political decision to change direction eastward would have never come and Sea Lion would have happened. What would have Britain defended itself with then- the Home Guard with pitch forks and shotguns? You should thank God a lone German bomber ditched its bombs on London and saved your nation. Germany could have kept fighting and by the winter of 1940 you would have ran out of pilots and planes- had the Germans not diverted to civilian targets like London. Keith Keep dreaming on, Rob
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#10
February 19th 04, 01:12 AM
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"Tuollaf43" wrote in message om... "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "robert arndt" wrote in message m... The US postwar history: Facts arent your strong point are they ? Korea: stalemate South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making. Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded. And the Jupiters from Turkey as Russia demanded, along with assurances that US would not invade Cuba. Stalemate. Older missiles already planned for removal--we had a new program coming online about that time which you may have heard of...Polaris? We also removed the Thors from the UK at about the same time, and for the same reasons--they were liquid fueled and had been made superfluous. snip Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure. Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups Terrorists out, drug lords in. And I suppose all those reports of Taliban resurgence in the Pashtun areas are all propaganda. Uhmmm... the key at this point is,as Keith pointed out, it is no longer serving as an open bazaar and training ground for terrorists--and that a few other nations took note and became a bit less receptive of other terrorist operations. snip Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined LOL! Tell us more. Uhmmm...the total population of Germany in 1940 was some 80 million, the US population was about 130 million, with the top four states (NY, PA, TX, CA) only accounting for some 34 million--so you can run the numbers further if you like, but it appears Keith's statement is in fact correct. www.ciaonet.org/book/schweller/appendix.html and controlled the combined industries of western europe and couldnt even beat Britain. Before the War Germany was a major (but not predominant) power in Europe. Today it still is a major (but not predominant) power in Europe. Thank goodness for the Marshall Plan, huh? Before the war Britain was a major world power with a globe spanning empire - today it is a mere lackey to the US. That's not correct. The UK remains an independent nation; that it has happened to agree with the US in more cases than it disagrees is as much a product of common values than anything else. Reading anything further into it merely indicates a degree of paranoia on your part. Germany might not have won, No, there is no doubt--she did not win. Thank goodness for that, huh? but Britain sure seems to have lost. Lost what? Are you sure you are not confusing the UK with *France*? Now France *did* lose, just like Germany eventually lost...sorry if that all upsets you, but them's the facts. Brooks Keith
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