In a piaggio avanti!

I recently found myself sitting behind the controls
in one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ae...180_Avanti.jpg

Too bad we were sitting on the tarmac, not moving.
Heh! I asked the captain, "I bet you typically cruise
this thing about 32K feet?" He smiled and said,
"No, try 43K ft." Nice plane, pusher prop, fast as
hell! We hung out for a bit in the plush cabin and
the co-captain told me stories about Caribbean
runways with broken asphalt, and Mexican airports
where they'll steal your wheels.

I tried, but they would't let me take it once around
the block. (as if I could)

---
Mark

Mark wrote

Too bad we were sitting on the tarmac, not moving.
Heh! I asked the captain,.... the co-captain .....

I guess that it is time for my annual "who's who in the cockpit"
post.



Manuel W. wrote:
On airliners, you often hear that the F/O actually acts as PIC
(I suppose this is for training purposes). Just a quick (and
maybe stupid) question: where does this "F/O acting as PIC"
pilot sit in the cockpit? In the left seat, because he's acting
as PIC, or still in the right seat, because he's a F/O? Maybe
modern cockpits are symmetric, so it wouldn't make any
difference where you are seated...

Dave S wrote
What you are describing is "Pilot Flying" and "Pilot Not Flying"
when it comes to who is doing what. The PIC is still the PIC,
the F/O is still the F/O. They are both required to be there,
but one flies the plane, the other does all the other stuff (or
however their employer has designated that CRM/resource
management will occur). PIC sits on the left (generally) and F/O
sits on the right (generally). They dont swap seats for
different legs.

You guys have touched on one of my pet peeves in aviation. Pilots
not knowing who or what they are. :-)

At the fundamental level, there is the "PILOT" as defined in my
"Webster's" as being "the person who operates an aircraft or
spacecraft" and the "COPILOT" as being "one who assists the pilot
in operating an aircraft". Actually, in the case of more than one
pilot, perhaps they both should be "CO-PILOTS" since the prefix "co"
simply means together.

Then came the FAA (or rather its predessor the CAA) who insisted that
somebody (preferrably one of the pilots) really be in charge of the
whole operation. Thus the "PILOT-IN-COMMAND" concept came about. If
the pilots were equally qualified, the FAA required that the Air
Carrier designate one of them as PILOT-IN-COMMAND (PIC). This left
"SECOND-IN-COMMAND" (SIC) for the other pilot.

Note....that to this point, PILOT and CO-PILOT go together and PIC
and SIC share context. The CFR for multi-pilot aircraft use the
terms PIC and SIC.....not Pilot and Co-pilot.

Then aircarriers (actually my old carrier PanAm) started flying large
flying boats into foreign ports and in an attempt to gain the
same level of respect for the flightcrews that the crews of visiting
ships received, the concept of flightcrew officers with rank and
title was born. Following the nautical tradition, the PICs were
given the rank and title of "CAPTAIN", but differing somewhat from
shipboard terminology, instead of "First Mate" for the second ranking
officer, he was given the rank and title of "FIRST OFFICER". The
Flight Engineer became the "FLIGHT ENGINEERING OFFICER" much the same
as a ship's Engineering Officer.

When aircarriers started employing pilots to train and serve as
Flight Engineers, even though they held a Flight Engineer
Certificate, they were in many cases given the rank and title of
"SECOND OFFICER". In addition to these and the "RADIO OFFICER", it
was not uncommon on those early flying boats to have a Fifth or Sixth
Officer.

What purpose did "rank and title" serve? First....rank served to
specify the level of responsibility and authority of ones position
within the flightcrew, and second, the title served as a means of
showing respect when addressing one of the aircraft's officers.
After all...in proper society, we are all entitled to the title
Mr./Mrs./Miss if no other title has been bestowed upon us. One does
not bestow a title upon himself nor use his title when refering to
himself. Being PIC of an aircraft does not automatically confer the
rank and title of "CAPTAIN". At PanAm, all of our copilots held ATPs
and Type Ratings for the aircraft that they flew and in the eyes of
the FAA, they were fully qualified to fly as PICs outside of an
aircarrier enviroment, but the rank and title of "CAPTAIN" was not
bestowed until they had completed the FAA required Initial Operating
Experience (IOE) for PICs and an Initial Command Check.

So now, we have three sets of words used to describe the two people
up front in an airplane. Pilot/Copilot, PIC/SIC, and Captain/First
Officer. These word pairs should be used in the same context. I am
constantly amused by those who write " I was Captain of flight XXX
and my copilot was....... It seems that once a pilot is told that he
is "A Captain", he will never again refer to himself as mearly a
pilot, but First Officer Smith is still just a copilot.

Rank and titles should not be used as stand-alone nouns but rather as
intended, as a title prefaced before a persons proper name.

Yes, I know that many of you work, or have worked for companies in
whose manuals the terms "Captain" and "First Officer" are used to
describe positions rather than rank and title. My own company, PanAm
did that too, but I also knew the Director of Flight Operations who
prepared the manual and I fully understood that he was no student of
the English language and whose ego would never again allow himself to
be refered to as a "lowly" pilot.

How about all those ads in aviation magazines that offer "Airline First
Officer Training"? Don't they really mean co-pilot training? Notice
that the more professional of the schools do not use this terminology.

How many of you pilots renew your FAA Medical Certificate with one of
your local doctors? I don't. I get mine from a physician.... more
specifically from an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). I honor his
education, training, and position in life with the title "Doctor".
"Doctor" is an academic title , not a position.

Some will say, "Well, what about a ship's "captain"? Actually, a
merchant ship has a "MASTER" with the rank and title of "Captain". A
U.S. Naval ship has a "COMMANDING OFFICER", again with the title of
"Captain" regardless of his actual Naval rank.

Ah well....no one ever said that we had to be proficient in language
skills in order to fly airplanes or pretend to be a pilot on the
internet.

Bob Moore

On Apr 23, 8:29*am, Bob Moore wrote:
Mark wrote



Too bad we were sitting on the tarmac, not moving.
Heh! *I asked the captain,.... the co-captain .....

I guess that it is time for my annual "who's who in the cockpit"
post. *

Manuel W. wrote:
On airliners, you often hear that the F/O actually acts as PIC
(I suppose this is for training purposes). Just a quick (and
maybe stupid) question: where does this "F/O acting as PIC"
pilot sit in the cockpit? In the left seat, because he's acting
as PIC, or still in the right seat, because he's a F/O? Maybe
modern cockpits are symmetric, so it wouldn't make any
difference where you are seated...

Dave S *wrote

What you are describing is "Pilot Flying" and "Pilot Not Flying"
when it comes to who is doing what. The PIC is still the PIC,
the F/O is still the F/O. They are both required to be there,
but one flies the plane, the other does all the other stuff (or
however their employer has designated that CRM/resource
management will occur). PIC sits on the left (generally) and F/O
sits on the right (generally). They dont swap seats for
different legs.

You guys have touched on one of my pet peeves in aviation. *Pilots
not knowing who or what they are. *:-)

At the fundamental level, there is the "PILOT" as defined in my
"Webster's" as being "the person who operates an aircraft or
spacecraft" and the "COPILOT" as being "one who assists the pilot
in operating an aircraft". *Actually, in the case of more than one
pilot, perhaps they both should be "CO-PILOTS" since the prefix "co"
simply means together.

Then came the FAA (or rather its predessor the CAA) who insisted that
somebody (preferrably one of the pilots) really be in charge of the
whole operation. *Thus the "PILOT-IN-COMMAND" concept came about. *If
the pilots were equally qualified, the FAA required that the Air
Carrier designate one of them as PILOT-IN-COMMAND (PIC). *This left
"SECOND-IN-COMMAND" (SIC) for the other pilot.

Note....that to this point, PILOT and CO-PILOT go together and PIC
and SIC share context. *The CFR for multi-pilot aircraft use the
terms PIC and SIC.....not Pilot and Co-pilot.

Then aircarriers (actually my old carrier PanAm) started flying large
flying boats into foreign ports and in an attempt to gain the
same level of respect for the flightcrews that the crews of visiting
ships received, the concept of flightcrew officers with rank and
title was born. *Following the nautical tradition, the PICs were
given the rank and title of "CAPTAIN", but differing somewhat from
shipboard terminology, instead of "First Mate" for the second ranking
officer, he was given the rank and title of "FIRST OFFICER". *The
Flight Engineer became the "FLIGHT ENGINEERING OFFICER" much the same
as a ship's Engineering Officer.

When aircarriers started employing pilots to train and serve as
Flight Engineers, even though they held a Flight Engineer
Certificate, they were in many cases given the rank and title of
"SECOND OFFICER". *In addition to these and the "RADIO OFFICER", it
was not uncommon on those early flying boats to have a Fifth or Sixth
Officer.

What purpose did "rank and title" serve? *First....rank served to
specify the level of responsibility and authority of ones position
within the flightcrew, and second, the title served as a means of
showing respect when addressing one of the aircraft's officers.
After all...in proper society, we are all entitled to the title
Mr./Mrs./Miss if no other title has been bestowed upon us. *One does
not bestow a title upon himself nor use his title when refering to
himself. *Being PIC of an aircraft does not automatically confer the
rank and title of "CAPTAIN". *At PanAm, all of our copilots held ATPs
and Type Ratings for the aircraft that they flew and in the eyes of
the FAA, they were fully qualified to fly as PICs outside of an
aircarrier enviroment, but the rank and title of "CAPTAIN" was not
bestowed until they had completed the FAA required Initial Operating
Experience (IOE) for PICs and an Initial Command Check.

So now, we have three sets of words used to describe the two people
up front in an airplane. *Pilot/Copilot, PIC/SIC, and Captain/First
Officer. *These word pairs should be used in the same context. *I am
constantly amused by those who write " I was Captain of flight XXX
and my copilot was....... *It seems that once a pilot is told that he
is "A Captain", he will never again refer to himself as mearly a
pilot, but First Officer Smith is still just a copilot.

Rank and titles should not be used as stand-alone nouns but rather as
intended, as a title prefaced before a persons proper name.

Yes, I know that many of you work, or have worked for companies in
whose manuals the terms "Captain" and "First Officer" are used to
describe positions rather than rank and title. *My own company, PanAm
did that too, but I also knew the Director of Flight Operations who
prepared the manual and I fully understood that he was no student of
the English language and whose ego would never again allow himself to
be refered to as a "lowly" pilot.

*How about all those ads in aviation magazines that offer "Airline First
Officer Training"? Don't they really mean co-pilot training? *Notice
that the more professional of the schools do not use this terminology.

How many of you pilots renew your FAA Medical Certificate with one of
your local doctors? *I don't. *I get mine from a physician.... more
specifically from an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). *I honor his
education, training, and position in life with the title "Doctor". *
"Doctor" is an academic title , not a position.

Some will say, "Well, what about a ship's "captain"? *Actually, a
merchant ship has a "MASTER" with the rank and title of "Captain". *A
U.S. Naval ship has a "COMMANDING OFFICER", again with the title of
"Captain" regardless of his actual Naval rank.

Ah well....no one ever said that we had to be proficient in language
skills in order to fly airplanes or pretend to be a pilot on the
internet.

Bob Moore

Well, I'd like to think my language skills are in order,
and I see no point in telling tales on the internet, it
accomplishes nothing. I fly a little when I can.

But thanks for your edification surrounding proper
nomenclature surrounding rank. To conform to protocol
let me be more specific in describing who was present
with me in that Piaggio Avanti.

There was the Fat Guy with greying hair, about 50,
and the skinny kid with blond hair about 30. Both
had white shirts and blue jackets hung on a seat.
Or to suit you further, it was FG/GH and SK/BH.

---
Mark

On 23 Apr 2010 12:29:19 GMT, Bob Moore wrote:

Ah well....no one ever said that Mark had to be proficient in language
skills in order to fly airplanes or pretend to be a pilot on the
internet.

Ain't it the truth.
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 03:54:13 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

I recently found myself sitting behind the controls
in one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ae...180_Avanti.jpg

Too bad we were sitting on the tarmac, not moving.

Then come on down to APF and I'll get you a proper ride, Mark(ie).

Heh! I asked the captain,

*lol* As in Captain Hook?

Nice plane, pusher prop, fast as
hell!

One prop? My God, Mark(ie) did the other one fall off? Did you miss
the canard on that duck?

We hung out for a bit in the plush cabin and
the co-captain told me stories about Caribbean
runways with broken asphalt, and Mexican airports
where they'll steal your wheels.

And tales of yore a Arrggh Arrgh. /lol/

I tried, but they would't let me take it once around
the block. (as if I could)

I am certain they thought you were a cutesy.

Or "Can't wait to shoot the security assclown that let this guy climb
into our bird".
--
http://tr.im/1fa6