Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

Mxsmanic wrote:

PPL-A (Canada) writes:


Again ... the answer remains the same ... neck straight ... not bent.


And the absence of data is still there.

See, further proof. You were answered. You didn't like
the answer. It's not an absence of data, it's an absence
of brain.

PPL-A (Canada) wrote:

Now now ... all you've done is substituted "And" for "But"! So I
guess I should have said "No 'if's', 'ands', 'ors', 'buts'

So that excludes the ass from replying. I should have
thought of that before!

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

RomeoMike wrote in
:



BT wrote:


In the words of the Jedi Master... "Use the Force Luke".. be one with
the aircraft.

BT



You are preaching to the choir, but MX is not in the choir. He's solo
in another auditorium.


Toilet, I think


bertie

AHEM.. Toilette

Mxsmanic wrote:

Bob Moore writes:


Because they are not normally operating in coordinated flight.


Why would that make a difference?

What they seem to be doing is minimizing the tilting of their heads, just as
motorcycle racers, ballet dancers, and ice skaters do.

Nope, during any sort of flight, turns, straight and level,
whatever, a motorcycle racer, ballet dancer, or an ice skater
would still sit with a straight back and neck if they want to
continue a respectable level of flight. Hell, I do software
and IT and I sit the same as they would during flight.

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

Let's see, airplanes free to move in 3 axis, orientation and velocity
determined by gravity, engine thrust, and aerodynamic forces on the
control surfaces.

In a coordinated turn, aircraft move in two dimensions, not three. They roll
into turns to keep the acceleration vector parallel to the yaw axis.

Bzzzt, wrong answer.

In a coordinated turn, a real aircraft can maintain altitude, climb,
or decend.

Real aircraft operate in 3 dimensions.

Motorcycles, free to move in 2 axis, orientation and velocity determined
by gravity, engine power, coefficient of friction between the tires
and the surface, the surface itself, relative angle between front
and rear wheels, gyroscopic action of the wheels.

In a coordinated turn, motorcycles move in two dimensions. They lean into
turns to keep the acceleration vector aligned with the center of gravity and
the plane of the rear wheel.

Motorcycles ALWAYS operate in 2 dimensions; the surface of the Earth
insures that.

You neglected the coefficient of friction between the tires and the surface,
relative angle between front and rear wheels, and gyroscopic action of
the wheels.

But you could care less since you only want to argue endlessly.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Any response to his posts one cannot resist, should contain MX's real
name. There's a chance any seeker of tour guide services in Paris
might Google the name up in quotes, and land upon hint of the kind of
personality a prospective payer of money will have to put up with.
This is not nasty; just consumer information w/o hint it's intended to
be. Only real hardball will make him go away. He wants to see his
awesome knowledge on the net so badly for that reason alone, he just
posted elsewhe

"I directly suggested to London some years ago that they might be able
to use
groundwater to cool the subway by circulating a closed-circuit coolant
through
nearby groundwater and then using that to cool the subway. The system
would
gradually run out of cold, but it might last long enough to get
through the
hot period of the year. Then again, the "hot period" is getting
longer every
year, so it would not be a permanent solution."

F--

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Erik writes:

How the hell would you know?

Because I took training in motorcycle riding, and I've driven motorcycles
in
the past. Bicycles work on the same principle. And so, apparently, do
aircraft.

Wow, you have actually been trained to ride a motorcycle. Was it the same
school that teaches other monkeys to do so too.

Did you get a real certificate, cap and gown, trophy.

What a putz. That statement alone is suitable for framing.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

In a coordinated turn, motorcycles move in two dimensions. They lean into
turns to keep the acceleration vector aligned with the center of gravity
and
the plane of the rear wheel.

Yep, you're right, they're identical.

Pretty much, in this context.

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're ****ting us! Really!

An airplane leans in to the turns.

I guess we've all been doing something wrong. Perhaps getting the wheels of
the ground.

What MORON!

"Mxsmanic" wrote ...

In a coordinated turn, motorcycles move in two dimensions. They lean into
turns to keep the acceleration vector aligned with the center of gravity
and
the plane of the rear wheel.

Yep, you're right, they're identical.

Pretty much, in this context.

Disagree.

First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a turn. They
are, however, bound to follow the road surface. Which may be flat.. or then
not.

Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs. the
pilot is looking at.

Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike on the
road, in order to spot any bumps. Or maybe he just wants to optimize his
turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly. In
either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight perception
improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road.

The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's
interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the instruments.
That's a different case and it's not self-evident that tilting the head
parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's turn performance. On the
contrary, especially if the pilot uses the VSI and altimeter to maintain
altitude, it's probably easier to read them with the eyes level relative to
the instrument panel.

Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision can
better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if he keeps
his head still. When the airplane banks, part of his stereoscopic ability
is transferred to the vertical direction, which may improve his sensing of
climb/descent changes. Whereas the bike driver has no need to be able to
sense movement in the vertical plane, as he is bound to the road surface
anyway.

Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his seat.
Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn.

I'm not aware of scientific proof of the above, but neither of the reverse.
So until the opposite is credibly shown, I'll contend that a motorcycle is
different from an airplane.

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061116042375249-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 12:39:10 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

No. Barrel rolls do NOT go negative generally. If you went negative you
would change the roll arc and destroy the roll. You can unload to 0 g
through the top however without destroying the roll arc, but if you do,
you have to reapply positive g almost immediately as you pass through
inverted to regain the roll arc. As I said, you can do a barrel roll at
any positive g; as tight or as little as the flight envelope for the
aircraft will allow up to 90 degrees of flight path direction change at
the roll apex.
Generally the roll profile will be the application of positive g above +1
from the roll initiation (either from level flight or from a slight dive
offset to gain energy if needed) followed by coordinated roll and back
pressure into the roll arc maintaining positive g with varying back
pressure to maintain the roll arc through the roll and through the
recovery back to the entry heading.
You can NOT at any time during a barrel roll, allow the g to go negative
as doing so will instantly destroy the arc of the roll.
Dudley Henriques


No it won't, and yes you can.