If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#211
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
Mxsmanic wrote in
news Snowbird writes: First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a turn. Neither do aircraft. Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs. the pilot is looking at. The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going. Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike on the road, in order to spot any bumps. No, that results in target fixation, and accidents. Or maybe he just wants to optimize his turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly. In either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight perception improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road. Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots. The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the instruments. That's a different case and it's not self-evident that tilting the head parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's turn performance. On the contrary, especially if the pilot uses the VSI and altimeter to maintain altitude, it's probably easier to read them with the eyes level relative to the instrument panel. This is a VFR pilot? Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision can better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if he keeps his head still. Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so it is never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators use collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without bothering to simulate 3D. Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his seat. Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn. I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the bike. That's because your instructor was stuck with an idiot We frequently use little zen things like that to keep the student from doing something stupid. Mostly out of desperation when al else fails. Bertie |
#212
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
Mxsmanic wrote in
news Snowbird writes: First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a turn. Neither do aircraft. Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs. the pilot is looking at. The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going. Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike on the road, in order to spot any bumps. No, that results in target fixation, and accidents. Or maybe he just wants to optimize his turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly. In either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight perception improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road. Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots. The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the instruments. That's a different case and it's not self-evident that tilting the head parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's turn performance. On the contrary, especially if the pilot uses the VSI and altimeter to maintain altitude, it's probably easier to read them with the eyes level relative to the instrument panel. This is a VFR pilot? Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision can better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if he keeps his head still. Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so it is never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators use collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without bothering to simulate 3D. Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his seat. Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn. I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the bike. I'm not aware of scientific proof of the above, but neither of the reverse. So until the opposite is credibly shown, I'll contend that a motorcycle is different from an airplane. Different in many ways, but very much the same in turns. You're an idiot. Talking to another idiot. Bertie |
#213
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
... And so, apparently, do aircraft. Hey, I tried duplicating flight with my motorcycle, but I ended up crashing into the retaining wall at the end of the runway. I plan to sue you. Who is you lawyer? |
#214
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
"El Maximo" wrote in
: "Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... And so, apparently, do aircraft. Hey, I tried duplicating flight with my motorcycle, but I ended up crashing into the retaining wall at the end of the runway. I plan to sue you. Who is you lawyer? http://www.capcom.com/phoenixwright/ |
#215
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
On Jun 10, 11:07 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
When you make a coordinated turn in an aircraft, are you taught to let your head tilt with the bank angle of the aircraft, or are you taught to keep your head normal to the horizon? A couple of things to ponder. If (contray to what real life pilots and CFIs have said here) pilots were taught to generally lean/tilt their heads to keep it normal to the horizon, wouldn't a fine simulator such as MSFS ("as real as it gets") be designed to keep the horizon always horizonal across your monitor and have the cockpit artwork rotate/tilt (since that would present the same sight picture to a sim-pilot as a real pilot would encounter)? Have you ever felt the need to lean/tilt your head during coordinated turns in a commercial airliner? If you forced yourself to lean in such a situation you chances are you'd feel much more disorientated. |
#216
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
El Maximo wrote:
So: the real question is: when using MSFS, should a newbie keep her head level with the REAL horizon, or the Artificial Horizon? The real horizon never moves in MSFS. G |
#217
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
On Jun 12, 11:52 am, Bob Crawford wrote:
... Have you ever felt the need to lean/tilt your head during coordinated turns in a commercial airliner? I don't recall ever sensing an airliner was in a bank while in solid cloud. Like where I know they'd have to hang some healthy turns to swing back to join the LOC on the ILS. Can't feel nuthin. The carriers need to consult MX to see what they're doing wrong. F-- |
#218
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
On Jun 11, 5:26 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
writes: It is also important to realize (!) that bike is _not_ doing a co- ordinated turn. Yes, it is. If it were not, it would fall over. Aha, I can see you don't know how/why a bike can turn a corner. It's actually slipping and that creates the turning force. The lean creates the couple that opposes the slip force. That is why it is not a coordinated turn. Probably a bit beyond your high school physics tho'. Now think, you can tilt you head maybe 45 degrees but what would a pilot do for a 60 or 90 degree turn? Tilt his head 60 or 90 degrees, which most people can do without difficulty. Yes sure, you have a broken neck. Try it looking in a mirror (if you can stand the sight). Did you like the evidence showing an expert racer with his head at less than the lean angle? Cheers |
#219
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
|
#220
|
|||
|
|||
Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?
"Mxsmanic" wrote .... Snowbird writes: First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a turn. Neither do aircraft. That was never the issue. An aircraft can control its altitude in a turn, but a motorcycle must follow any ups and downs in the road. Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs. the pilot is looking at. The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going. But the motorcycle rider does not need to, and indeed can not, have control in the vertical dimension. Consequently he has no need to look at visual cues affecting the vertical dimension. The pilot, on the contrary, has. Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike on the road, in order to spot any bumps. No, that results in target fixation, and accidents. Failure to notice bumps, potholes, or sand on the intended track causes accidents. Or maybe he just wants to optimize his turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly. In either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight perception improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road. Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots. Ever seen a motorcyclist turning onto a compass course? The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the instruments. That's a different case and it's not self-evident that tilting the head parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's turn performance. On the contrary, especially if the pilot uses the VSI and altimeter to maintain altitude, it's probably easier to read them with the eyes level relative to the instrument panel. This is a VFR pilot? This is not about simulator games. Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision can better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if he keeps his head still. Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so it is never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators use collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without bothering to simulate 3D. The nose of the airplane is hardly 10 metres away. Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his seat. Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn. I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the bike. So what? I'm not aware of scientific proof of the above, but neither of the reverse. So until the opposite is credibly shown, I'll contend that a motorcycle is different from an airplane. Different in many ways, but very much the same in turns. You're entitled to your opinion, even if it sucks. Both need about the same bank angle, but the similarity ends there. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Question: Standard rate turns, constant rate turns, and airspeed | Robert Barker | Piloting | 5 | April 15th 07 04:47 PM |
CAP Orientation Pilot? | Robert M. Gary | Piloting | 7 | August 3rd 05 02:22 AM |
ADV: AVIATION T-SHIRTS & HEAD GEAR | Kates Saloon and Knife Emporium | General Aviation | 0 | December 30th 03 12:37 PM |
ADV: GREAT AVIATION T-SHIRTS & HEAD GEAR | Kates Saloon and Knife Emporium | Aviation Marketplace | 0 | December 30th 03 12:36 PM |
sounds of aviation navigation equipment as head on a scanner radio | Dan Jacobson | Instrument Flight Rules | 5 | December 4th 03 08:27 PM |