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Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?



 
 
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  #211  
Old June 12th 07, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]
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Posts: 896
Default Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

Mxsmanic wrote in
news
Snowbird writes:

First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a
turn.


Neither do aircraft.

Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs.
the pilot is looking at.


The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going.

Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike
on the road, in order to spot any bumps.


No, that results in target fixation, and accidents.

Or maybe he just wants to optimize his
turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly.
In either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight
perception improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road.


Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots.

The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's
interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the
instruments. That's a different case and it's not self-evident that
tilting the head parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's
turn performance. On the contrary, especially if the pilot uses the
VSI and altimeter to maintain altitude, it's probably easier to read
them with the eyes level relative to the instrument panel.


This is a VFR pilot?

Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision
can better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if
he keeps his head still.


Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so
it is never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators
use collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without
bothering to simulate 3D.

Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his
seat. Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn.


I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the
bike.


That's because your instructor was stuck with an idiot

We frequently use little zen things like that to keep the student from
doing something stupid. Mostly out of desperation when al else fails.



Bertie
  #212  
Old June 12th 07, 03:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 896
Default Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

Mxsmanic wrote in
news
Snowbird writes:

First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a
turn.


Neither do aircraft.

Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs.
the pilot is looking at.


The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going.

Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike
on the road, in order to spot any bumps.


No, that results in target fixation, and accidents.

Or maybe he just wants to optimize his
turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly.
In either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight
perception improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road.


Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots.

The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's
interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the
instruments. That's a different case and it's not self-evident that
tilting the head parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's
turn performance. On the contrary, especially if the pilot uses the
VSI and altimeter to maintain altitude, it's probably easier to read
them with the eyes level relative to the instrument panel.


This is a VFR pilot?

Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision
can better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if
he keeps his head still.


Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so
it is never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators
use collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without
bothering to simulate 3D.

Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his
seat. Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn.


I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the
bike.

I'm not aware of scientific proof of the above, but neither of the
reverse. So until the opposite is credibly shown, I'll contend that a
motorcycle is different from an airplane.


Different in many ways, but very much the same in turns.



You're an idiot.

Talking to another idiot.

Bertie
  #213  
Old June 12th 07, 04:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
El Maximo
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Posts: 292
Default Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

And so, apparently, do aircraft.


Hey, I tried duplicating flight with my motorcycle, but I ended up crashing
into the retaining wall at the end of the runway.

I plan to sue you.

Who is you lawyer?


  #214  
Old June 12th 07, 04:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Bertie the Bunyip[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 896
Default Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

"El Maximo" wrote in
:

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...

And so, apparently, do aircraft.


Hey, I tried duplicating flight with my motorcycle, but I ended up
crashing into the retaining wall at the end of the runway.

I plan to sue you.

Who is you lawyer?


http://www.capcom.com/phoenixwright/
  #215  
Old June 12th 07, 04:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
Bob Crawford
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Posts: 17
Default Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

On Jun 10, 11:07 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
When you make a coordinated turn in an aircraft, are you taught to let your
head tilt with the bank angle of the aircraft, or are you taught to keep your
head normal to the horizon?


A couple of things to ponder.

If (contray to what real life pilots and CFIs have said here) pilots
were taught to generally lean/tilt their heads to keep it normal to
the horizon, wouldn't a fine simulator such as MSFS ("as real as it
gets") be designed to keep the horizon always horizonal across your
monitor and have the cockpit artwork rotate/tilt (since that would
present the same sight picture to a sim-pilot as a real pilot would
encounter)?

Have you ever felt the need to lean/tilt your head during coordinated
turns in a commercial airliner? If you forced yourself to lean in
such a situation you chances are you'd feel much more disorientated.

  #216  
Old June 12th 07, 05:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
B A R R Y[_2_]
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Posts: 782
Default Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

El Maximo wrote:
So: the real question is: when using MSFS, should a newbie keep her head
level with the REAL horizon, or the Artificial Horizon?


The real horizon never moves in MSFS. G


  #217  
Old June 12th 07, 06:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

On Jun 12, 11:52 am, Bob Crawford wrote:
...
Have you ever felt the need to lean/tilt your head during coordinated
turns in a commercial airliner?


I don't recall ever sensing an airliner was in a bank while in solid
cloud. Like where I know they'd have to hang some healthy turns to
swing back to join the LOC on the ILS. Can't feel nuthin. The
carriers need to consult MX to see what they're doing wrong.

F--

  #218  
Old June 12th 07, 06:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 13
Default Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

On Jun 11, 5:26 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:
It is also important to realize (!) that bike is _not_ doing a co-
ordinated turn.


Yes, it is. If it were not, it would fall over.


Aha, I can see you don't know how/why a bike can turn a corner. It's
actually slipping and that creates the turning force. The lean creates
the couple that opposes the slip force. That is why it is not a
coordinated turn. Probably a bit beyond your high school physics tho'.


Now think, you can tilt you head maybe 45 degrees but
what would a pilot do for a 60 or 90 degree turn?


Tilt his head 60 or 90 degrees, which most people can do without difficulty.


Yes sure, you have a broken neck. Try it looking in a mirror (if you
can stand the sight). Did you like the evidence showing an expert
racer with his head at less than the lean angle?

Cheers

  #220  
Old June 12th 07, 10:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.piloting
Snowbird
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Posts: 96
Default Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?


"Mxsmanic" wrote ....
Snowbird writes:

First, motorcycles don't necessarily move in two dimensions in a turn.


Neither do aircraft.


That was never the issue. An aircraft can control its altitude in a turn,
but a motorcycle must follow any ups and downs in the road.


Second, you might also want to ponder what the motorcycle driver vs. the
pilot is looking at.


The driver of any vehicle needs to look where the vehicle is going.


But the motorcycle rider does not need to, and indeed can not, have control
in the vertical dimension. Consequently he has no need to look at visual
cues affecting the vertical dimension. The pilot, on the contrary, has.


Maybe the bike rider wants to look at the intended track of his bike on
the
road, in order to spot any bumps.


No, that results in target fixation, and accidents.


Failure to notice bumps, potholes, or sand on the intended track causes
accidents.


Or maybe he just wants to optimize his
turn to the available width of the road and looks at it more broadly. In
either case it would seem to make sense that the rider's sight perception
improves, if he tilts his eyes more parallel to the road.


Motorcycle riders look where they want to go, just like pilots.


Ever seen a motorcyclist turning onto a compass course?

The pilot, on the other hand, does not look at any road ahead. He's
interested in the nose vs. horizon sight picture as well as the
instruments.
That's a different case and it's not self-evident that tilting the head
parallel to the horizon would improve the pilot's turn performance. On
the
contrary, especially if the pilot uses the VSI and altimeter to maintain
altitude, it's probably easier to read them with the eyes level relative
to
the instrument panel.


This is a VFR pilot?


This is not about simulator games.

Third, it just might be possible that the pilot's stereoscopic vision can
better help him maintain altitude in the turn by visual cues, if he keeps
his head still.


Stereoscopic vision ceases to be a factor beyond around 10 metres, so it
is
never important in the air--which is why full-motion simulators use
collimation to make everything seem infinitely far away, without bothering
to
simulate 3D.


The nose of the airplane is hardly 10 metres away.

Fourth, a bike rider leans forward, while a pilot leans back in his seat.
Can have impact on how the head turns in a turn.


I was taught not to lean in any direction that isn't aligned with the
bike.


So what?

I'm not aware of scientific proof of the above, but neither of the
reverse.
So until the opposite is credibly shown, I'll contend that a motorcycle
is
different from an airplane.


Different in many ways, but very much the same in turns.


You're entitled to your opinion, even if it sucks. Both need about the same
bank angle, but the similarity ends there.


 




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