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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"



 
 
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  #161  
Old March 19th 10, 01:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Bill Kambic[_2_]
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Posts: 49
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:32:56 +0000, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.


That's one of maybe a dozen people, then. Why not just tell us his name?


Probably because he was a reletive of Joe Kennedy; or maybe just a
drinking buddy.

But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.


Croats? Whiskey tango foxtrot, interrogative?


Croats make some pretty good pastries. My grandmother lived in a
neighborhood with a Croation church. Food at the pot lucks was pretty
good.

Don't know what that has to do with defending against Operation
Sealiion, though. :-)

We certainly had a big deception plan going in Kent... in 1944 to create
FUSAG and keep the Germans waiting in the Pas de Calais.

As far as artillery went, *immediately* after Dunkirk - on 8 June - we
had about 400 tanks, 420 field guns and 163 medium and heavy guns
*immediately* available for use. We had fifteen infantry and one
armoured division in being.

Through June, the Navy brought back to the UK about another 200,000
troops, and some of their artillery and vehicles. (Common myth - Dunkirk
was by no means the end of the fighting in France)

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.


About 70,000 after the Army's needs had been met.

Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.


Move out at 10pm in your three-knot barges, and by 5am you're not even
half-way across the Channel.

You have, however, met and felt the fire of the Auxiliary Patrol, and by
this point you're seeing destroyers by the dozen... and none of them
German.

I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He
wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he?


The Germans had no idea what they needed to do to successfully invade
England. It was certainly much more than an opposed "river crossing."
The landing beaches would have been clearly identified, ranged (by all
those guns they didn't have), and the roads blocked by all those
troops and tanks that they didn't have.

What we would have likely seen would have been the first invasion of
Wake, but on a grand scale. The IJN, with all the real experience
they had in PHIBOPS, screwed up pretty bad by grossly underestimating
their enemy. The German underestimation was at least that bad.

Ads
  #162  
Old March 19th 10, 01:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Dan wrote:
Alexander wrote:
snip
A determined Germany would have eaten England alive, but for massive
war materials and massive military direct aid. Hitler actually admired
England and did make an effort to make them an ally. Churchill double
crossed him when he usurped meeting with Rudolph Hess. That was a
double cross much more heinous as Hitlers double cross of Stalin.
England and Israel are 2 countries to never ever trust.



Using that logic no country is trustworthy. Sticking to WW2 the
Nazi's violation of their nonaggression pact with the Soviets is a prime
example.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired



As some one once stated:

America has no permanent Friends, only permanent enemies.
I think that pretty much fits any country.

I do however believe that America has to reconsider and reassess whom we
do business with in this day and age, based on our present day needs.
The past is nothing more then an example by which to learn and guide our
now and future decisions. We cannot redo the past, but we sure can be
more careful in our future actions. The economic mess we are in doesn't
seem to have sunk in to the pack of fools in Washington.
  #163  
Old March 19th 10, 02:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
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Posts: 10
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Jack Linthicum writes:

On Mar 18, 5:59*pm, Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:47*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the


At the far edge of dreamland the Germans have an attache in Shanghai
in 1937 when the Japanese invade in their landing craft with bow
doors. By some miracle this attache's report gets to Hitler who sees
these wonder craft as the answer to an invasion of England. He has
10,000 built in Norway or Poland and when the time comes for See Lowe
they have all been burned during the respective invasions of Norway
and Poland.


Wait.... there's more! Owing to a short but heated argument between
Goering and his physician over the diameter of needles ("get the
expensive thin ones you Dummkopf!"), the doctor's company nepotistically
assigned by the fascist bureaucracy to make special hinges for the doors
of these fantastic landing craft is punished and forced to go into the
needle business for 6 months. Hence of 10000 landing craft only a few
hundred have doors attached, the rest have the doors welded or rivetted
shut and the Stormtroopers told to put more oompf into their Drang when
they try to get out.
  #164  
Old March 19th 10, 02:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

A determined Germany would have eaten England alive, but for massive
war materials and massive military direct aid.


Well, assuming they could get there, which they couldn't...


Are you really daft enough to believe that would always be?
That is a very short Channel.


Hitler actually admired
England and did make an effort to make them an ally.


But the UK (Not England) reckoned he wasn't to be trusted.


Nobody called it the UK in those days.

Wise people...

Churchill double
crossed him when he usurped meeting with Rudolph Hess.


Hess was off the hook as far as America and Russia were concerned. The
English made damned sure that he could never be interviewed and remained
locked up in Spandau until the Arthritic ally crippled weak old man
jumped up 12 feet tied a belt to a rafter and hung himself while under
intense English Guard. The fact that he was never allowed pencil and
paper should tell even a Jew moron like you something. He was guilty of
no war crime. Dealing with Churchills England was a nasty joke. He even
lied to America.

I don't suppose you've any proof at all for that remarkable statement.

England and
Israel are 2 countries to never ever trust.


But, but, but, aren't they the same country run by the same people?


Are they now? Do you have something tangible to back your premise?

  #165  
Old March 19th 10, 02:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Alexander" wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam wrote:
In message
,
Ken S. Tucker writes
I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.

In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five
days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California,
commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace,
race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare
victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and
seventy for "recreational services"?)


Now that is funny. There is more military of that time in California
then anywhere else in the world.


I suspect the combined Red Army and Wehrmacht forces in Russia
were rather more numerous than the US forces in California.


True, but with a very very long supply line. Do keep in mind Russia of
that day was in no mood to attack America. Russia had other fish to fry.
America was 120 million, Germany united 80 million, Russia 170 million.
France required an occupation force as did Poland Yugoslavia and a
number of other small countries. Finland was not exactly playing dead
either. Russia also had internal strife. That is what is called "Pinned
chess pieces" in another game.



I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard
it's still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of
"some clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook
but took the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well.


A determined Germany would have eaten England alive, but for massive
war materials and massive military direct aid. Hitler actually admired
England and did make an effort to make them an ally. Churchill double
crossed him when he usurped meeting with Rudolph Hess.


Well now given that Hitler denounced Hess on German radio BEFORE
Hess had chance to meet anyone this seems an odd conclusion.


You have your dates wrong. Hitler denounced Hess after the betrayal by
Churchill. There is no way Hess would have traveled to Scotland without
an invitation by Churchill and the express wishes of the Nazi party.
According to your version.. Hitler was not even aware of Hess's trip,
until he was kidnapped. But then again, the limeys were not very good at
countering German intelligence. Admiral Canaris regularly made fools of
them.


That was a double
cross much more heinous as Hitlers double cross of Stalin. England and
Israel are 2 countries to never ever trust.


Churchill never wavered in his opposition to the Nazis, change your
medication
there's a good chap.


Churchill was a Political schill. His ****ups during WWI got him the
eventual sack. But you royalty loving buttocks reinstated him for WWII.
Sadly him and Mounty were the best you people could front. The only
leadership worse was the French. Actually you limeys were the prime
ignitors of that war. You just kept prodding Hitler with the Polish
corridor and we all paid the price. Of course the Jewish death grip on
the German economy created their own nemeses in the form of the Nazi
party and Adolph Hitler&troupe.

Keith



  #166  
Old March 19th 10, 02:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Kerryn Offord[_2_]
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Posts: 2
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Dan wrote:
Andrew Swallow wrote:
William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

You are dreaming. Very few War Historians believe that the English
Lion would not succumb in the event Germany had turned to England
rather then Russia.

How do they get there to inflict this defeat?

And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply?
The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in
the Channel a turkey shoot. Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on
ordinary roads/railways cannot be used.

Andrew Swallow


That and the best Nazi plans never had very many men in England at D+1
or the ability to immediately replenish ammunition expenditures. Men
with empty magazines tend to be unable to fire their weapons. On the
other hand the British had lots of ammunition and the advantage of
mobility. The RAF and Luftwaffe probably wouldn't have much effect in
the immediate area since they'd be a tad busy discussing things at
altitude.

Had the Nazis been able to hold a piece of property for any length of
time they would have gone hungry, short of munitions and no way to retreat.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired



Sort of Anzio.. only worse...

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---
  #167  
Old March 19th 10, 02:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.

In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five
days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California,
commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace,
race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare
victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and
seventy for "recreational services"?)

I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's
still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some
clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took
the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well.


I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.
But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.
But what ****un good is the that Island to Hitlers greater scheme,
nothing, but we know now he made a strategic military error, and
as Chruchill promised his bombers burned the black heart of Germany,
that was very unpleasant to all who were involved.
I request a polite response, as I gave.
Ken


You mean all those B17's, B24's, B25's, B26's etc were all Churchill's?
Don't forget the B29's. I have a few magazine clips showing thousands of
Aircraft at a time flying over Germany. And with US Markings. Some how I
do believe it was a Joint operation. I do wonder where all that avgas
came from?
  #168  
Old March 19th 10, 02:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Keith Willshaw wrote:


"William Black" wrote in message
...


The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.


Aren't we forgetting someone?

This being a naval group and all...

Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?


As prisoners under escort on their way to a POW camp ?

After the few survivors wade ashore from the burning and
sinking barges I'd imagine surrender would seem a good option.


The Germans that the limeys did capture usually escaped into the German
underground railroad and went home. Only those in maximum security were
not so lucky.


Keith

  #169  
Old March 19th 10, 02:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...

I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.

My my, someone on the BIGOT list and who had access to ULTRA.
That's about a dozen people below general officer rank.
Shouldn't be too hard to identify him.
That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.


Not sure about the "BIGOT" acronym, anyway he had a great job in
RCAF, as a "de-briefer". What that entailed was a bit complicated.
When RCAF personel returned from overseas he was allowed 1 week
to de-brief and calm them down enough to return them to civilian life.
He had to 'pump' them for information which I imagine a lot of men
were reluctant to relate, using cigarettes, booze and girls to get
them
chatty.
Funny he was highly qualified, before the war he was a gangster,
had a speak-easy in Winnipeg, and hustled booze and fish to
Chicago's Moran gang mainly, you know how kids are.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing
cabinet, probably still classified.
He had access to everything, as you can imagine, but the only
person he'd talk to about it was me, and only at the cottage we
built when we were alone, after drinking he'd loosen up a bit, but
he was always careful about what he said.
It was the analysis ability that he sifted for circulation that I
found
interesting.

But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.

Have you considered reading a book?


Which book did you read?


Willie read the Talmud.. You know the book that gives people like Willie
the right to be superior to Gentiles.


The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.

Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...


The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.
Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.

Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?


40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night?
(please don't tell me I need to prove math).

William Black


Regards
Ken


It is pretty obvious that Israel could use Willies military strategies
to help finish the slaughter in Gaza.
  #170  
Old March 19th 10, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

frank wrote:
On Mar 18, 1:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...
I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.
My my, someone on the BIGOT list and who had access to ULTRA.
That's about a dozen people below general officer rank.
Shouldn't be too hard to identify him.
That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.

Not sure about the "BIGOT" acronym, anyway he had a great job in
RCAF, as a "de-briefer". What that entailed was a bit complicated.
When RCAF personel returned from overseas he was allowed 1 week
to de-brief and calm them down enough to return them to civilian life.
He had to 'pump' them for information which I imagine a lot of men
were reluctant to relate, using cigarettes, booze and girls to get
them
chatty.
Funny he was highly qualified, before the war he was a gangster,
had a speak-easy in Winnipeg, and hustled booze and fish to
Chicago's Moran gang mainly, you know how kids are.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing
cabinet, probably still classified.
He had access to everything, as you can imagine, but the only
person he'd talk to about it was me, and only at the cottage we
built when we were alone, after drinking he'd loosen up a bit, but
he was always careful about what he said.
It was the analysis ability that he sifted for circulation that I
found
interesting.

But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.
Have you considered reading a book?

Which book did you read?

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.
Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.
Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.

Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?

40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night?
(please don't tell me I need to prove math).

William Black

Regards
Ken


Ken, you have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry. Go read a
book. You know there are books written on this subject.


I certainly could recommend the same to you, sir.
 




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