Bible-beater pilots

"James Robinson" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:

I know this is going down an off-topic sink hole, but I would be
interested to hear another pilot (I assume you are a pilot, if
you're here?) give a cogent, logical, scientifically-proven defense
of your beliefs.

Is that possible?

Yes. It was all contained in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
The answer to the ultimate question was "42". And that just about sums
it all up.

So sayeth the Shepherd, so sayeth the Flock! 42.

Chip, ZTL

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:32 GMT, "Lenny Toulson"
wrote:

Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
religion?

People have died in wars based on nothing but human avarice, with
religion as the dressing to break down a person's natural inclination
not to kill for the first time.

Let's not go and blame religion when other factors, usually condemned
by religious belief systems, are more operative. To do so would be
insignificant cause fallacies. Fights and wars have broken out over
things other than religion, and no society goes to war for that reason
alone. It's too much work!

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

Jay Honeck wrote:



Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

Gotta beat 'em off with a stick around here. The Mormons and the
Jehovah's Witnesses. The Witnesses built a church about a mile away.
When we found out who was building all the neighbors just rolled our
eyes because we knew after the church got finished they would be all
over the neighborhood. Sure enough every week they are pounding on the
door.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:00:56 +0100, Thomas Borchert
wrote:

That was the case in the vast majority of wars, I would say. Of course,
in most, religion was just a cover for power mongering - but that seems
to be common in religion anyway.

Given that power mongering exists with or without religion (unless the
last 100 years of secular democracies descending into fascist or
communist dictatorships is supposed to be set aside?), it seems
particularly fallacious to suppose that because many religions contain
power mongerers, that it is the cause of the belief system that they
monger power.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Jay,


Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?



Stand up for YOUR beliefs - or non-beliefs. It's the only way. If they
have the freedom to have their view - and they should - then it is your
right to have your own. Try to end the discussion by allowing that
people have different opinions about this, yours differs from theirs,
and you'd rather discuss something else.

Tell them that when they actually get a religion and not the cult they
are really in you'll discuss it with them.

Hi Jay,

Been there, done that. Back in college I had several encounters like
you describe. The first time it was almost an unreal experience and I
felt the ear burning embarassement that you describe. After that, I
learned to be rude as hell to people like that. I have even begun to
take pleasure in saying as absurd and inflamatory statements as
possible to mess with them. Be creative, it can be a gas. Don't be
afraid to be outlandish in your statements or behavior, but above all
else be as contrary and contradicatory as possible!

Dean

Dean Wilkinson wrote:

After that, I
learned to be rude as hell to people like that.

"Do I know Jesus? Sure! He's the Mexican scag dealer up on tenth street."

George Patterson
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can
be learned no other way.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:MEpvb.267465$Fm2.280789@attbi_s04...

When I find myself in a situation such as yours Jay, I cannot help but
to
"debate" if you like, the existance of God

If I'm sitting around a camp fire, I'm the same way. I'll debate religion
until I run out of breath.

I'm afraid that debating the existence of God would be quite a waste of
breath for it isn't possible to prove or disprove. And doing so would be
fruitless because religion deals with beliefs and you'll never convince a
truly religious person that their beliefs are unfounded. Your only success
will be in ****ing them off. Now, if they are trying to convert/convince you
then they deserve what they get.

My Dad's advice for me has always been (he's an agnostic) "If you want to
remain friends with someone, never discuss religion or politics." His advice
has worked well for me for 38 years now.

I would say that debating God's existence around a campfire would be quite a
waste of a good campfire.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

When confronted by these types, whether at my front door or elsewhere, I
just
firmly tell them that my religious beliefs are my own private business and
not something
I wish to debate with them .. and then walk away or shut the door.

My CFI for my PPL was a minister. He never even approached religion as part
of our discussions. And I used to kid him that I felt like I had TWO CFIs
when
I flew with him.

My CFI for my helicopter stuff was an Adventist missionary pilot.

These fine gentlemen let their actions and how they conducted their lives
speak.
They didn't try to convert or force their views on me. To me this was far
more
powerful then aggressive recruiting.




"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled,
it
was off to...where?

Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and
Wisconsin
Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
the way!

Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC
from
10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for
us.
To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.

After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in
the
back and all rode over together.

The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly.
As
we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.

In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.

Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that
it
was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.

It was not to be.

As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
religion when they reached the age of reason.

This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
waters.

The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether
we
had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we
did.
I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.

This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with
the
Koran.

Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to
the
heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a
nightmare"
feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them
in
disbelief.

Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be
"saved"?
I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that
I
didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I
only
had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to
Jesus
Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
prayer aloud with him?"

The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in
that
casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand
firmly
on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of
some
way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.

Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal,
and
felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was
simply
no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
income to the church...

At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
"interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.

Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as
if
he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an
observation
that made us laugh out loud.

We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back,
or
risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
to go back to the airport" when he got back.

His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then
it
was *our* turn to laugh!

Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and
sheer
tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck.
We
realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps
removed
from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
only difference being their hair style and their dogma.

Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have
a
hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
thing.

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Said non stop not allowing them to interrupt you:
"I'm really happy that you and your friend are comfortable with your
religious views and are here at the casino seeking souls to save but my wife
and I are really comfortable with our own religious beliefs and prefer not
to discuss them in public nor with strangers. I'm sure that there are
people here that are more in need of your sermon as the evils of gambling
can indeed have a detrimental effect on those who can not afford it. We're
sure that your help is truly needed elsewhere but when we accepted your kind
offer to dine with you without the pretense of a religious conversation.
Being pilots, like us, we expected to converse about airplanes and piloting.
Please feel free to move on to other worthy souls. Thankyou for the
entertainment, and have a great flight home, hit 16 stay on 17, lean above
3000, split 10s or better, double down on 20, Vx then Vy, lower the nose and
kiss the sky."

You were hit by 2 salesmen, nothing more. You didn't want to buy what they
were selling. Treat them the same as any other unwanted salesman. Surely
at the Inn you must get salesmen that come in asking for "The Head of
Maintenence", without knowing his name. Kindly tell them no, then show them
the door. Learn how to bull**** the bull****ter, they typically don't know
how to react to having to eat their own crap. Their rights end when they
interfere with your rights.

--
Jim Burns III
Raised Catholic but will die free.
Watched people build a congregation so a priest could tear it down.
Watched Bishops sell the churches out from under the people then rape their
pocketbooks for new ones.
Watched priests come and go but never stay, only milking the community for
all it was worth before deserting them.
Watched priests give parish funds to drug dealers.
Watched priests sell parish property against parishioners wishes.
Watched priests refuse to marry or baptize "certain" people of the parish.
.....and on and on and on
God has no religion, people create religion for their own gain.
God doesn't ruin religion, people ruin religion.

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