Best way to identify fix?

I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.

Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to cross
the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Roy Smith wrote:

I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.

Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to cross
the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.

Roy,

I gotta agree with you here. In practice, I would ignore LVT, and
identify TANDS with BNA and DME. If I didn't have a DME, then I would
use BNA and LVT radials. Of course, in *real* reality, I would use GPS
in OBS mode, and plot the inbound leg of the hold.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.

Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to
cross
the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.

Is there something I'm missing here?


No, IFRR made a boo-boo.

Roy Smith wrote in
:

I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR
Quiz from September 2002. See
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.

Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is
"BNA DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME
arc is almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an
extremely sloppy fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify
TANDS would be to cross the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA
R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.

Is there something I'm missing here?

TANDS, according to the chart, is fixed by the BNA 016 radial and the LVT
270 radial, and you can also use just 24.7 DME on the BNA 016 radial.
The written answer may be a little opaque, but it's more or less correct,
in that you can use either/or.

The R-106 will put you somewhere you shouldn't be, though. ;-)

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

Roy Smith wrote:

I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.

Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to cross
the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Seems to me you're missing something. ;-)

The sloppy tanget to the BNA DME would exist only if you were flying along the
LVT 270 radial. But, you're not. In the context of that approach chart you
flew the missed approach northbound on the BNA 016 radial until either BNA 24.7
DME or until crossing the LVT 270 radial northbound tracking BNA 016 radial.
Then, you enter the hold flying on-course southbound on the BNA 016 back to
TANDS.

So, what's sloppy about the BNA 24.7 DME fix when holding north of TANDS on the
BNA 016 radial (i.e., as the hold is charted)?

TANDS is authorized only for use along V-49, which is the BNA 016 radial at
that location. It is not authorized for flight along the LVT 270 radial unless
ATC were to give you an impromtu clearance to track the LVT 270 radial.

It's a long ways from LVT to TANDS (67.4 miles) so that is a pretty sloppy fix,
compared to the BNA R-016/24.7 DME. Also, according to the NACO L-21 Lo En
Route Chart, the MRA is 3,000, which makes it a pretty marginal fix using the
LVT 270 radial. They had to chart it that way, though, to keep the procedure
from requiring DME.

Stan Gosnell wrote:

Roy Smith wrote in
:

I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR
Quiz from September 2002. See
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.

Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is
"BNA DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME
arc is almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an
extremely sloppy fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify
TANDS would be to cross the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA
R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.

Is there something I'm missing here?

TANDS, according to the chart, is fixed by the BNA 016 radial and the LVT
270 radial, and you can also use just 24.7 DME on the BNA 016 radial.
The written answer may be a little opaque, but it's more or less correct,
in that you can use either/or.

The R-106 will put you somewhere you shouldn't be, though. ;-)


Especially when using the DNA 24.7 DME. ;-)

I gotta agree with you here. In practice, I would ignore LVT, and
identify TANDS with BNA and DME. If I didn't have a DME, then I would
use BNA and LVT radials. Of course, in *real* reality, I would use GPS
in OBS mode, and plot the inbound leg of the hold.

The context of the question in IFRR presumes you are flying the missed approach
using conventional ground-based nav.

If you had a GPS, though, and had the ILS approach loaded from the database,
after the MAP you would have to use the flight-plan (TF leg) mode of the GPS
until TANDS, then the OBS mode at TANDS to hold.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:44:02 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR Quiz
from September 2002. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.

Question #4 asks how to identify TANDS, and the answer they give is "BNA
DME and Livingston's R-270". Isn't that kind of nuts? The DME arc is
almost tangent to the LVT R-270, and would thus give an extremely sloppy
fix. The only rational ways in my mind to identify TANDS would be to cross
the BNA R-106 with the LVT R-270, or the BNA R-106, DNA 24.7 DME.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Greetings,

I don't see a DME arc on this procedure? If you're referring to the
'range rings', they just show that those portions of the plate outside
the 10 DME ring are not necessarily to-scale, they're not DME arcs.

As for TANDS, I believe you are correct in that it can be identified
using either BNA R106, 24.7DME, or the intersection of BNA R106 and
the Livingston R270, either of which is a pretty well defined point in
space.

Luck!
P

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 06:24:08 -0500, Peter Clark
wrote:

As for TANDS, I believe you are correct in that it can be identified
using either BNA R106, 24.7DME, or the intersection of BNA R106 and
the Livingston R270, either of which is a pretty well defined point in
space.

augh. subst R016 for R106. Teach me to copy information from the
previous post

wrote:
Roy Smith wrote:

I was looking at some old IFR Refreshers tonight, and found the IFR
Quiz
from September 2002. See
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0503/00282I2C.PDF.
[snip]

The sloppy tanget to the BNA DME would exist only if you were flying
along the
LVT 270 radial. But, you're not. In the context of that approach
chart you
flew the missed approach northbound on the BNA 016 radial until
either BNA
24.7 DME or until crossing the LVT 270 radial northbound tracking BNA
016
radial.
Then, you enter the hold flying on-course southbound on the BNA 016
back to
TANDS.

Hi. simulator pilot that enjoys flying IFR procedures here. How is this
hold entered? As I understand, BNA R-016 past BNA 24.7 DME (or LVT 270
radial), then a 180 degree turn southbound until reaching TANDS again,
and then left standard turn to 016? Any restrictions for the
southbound turn after passing TANDS the first time?

TIA,
Mike