Tow Signals

Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Casual or "know
it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
completed.

I assume you never tow at contests.


Andy

BT wrote:
how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

Papa3 wrote:
BT wrote:
how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

This is very interesting subject....preflight check? Brakes closed and
locked? Now, this leads me to another point of this subject...how many
pilots are taking off with their brakes open because it "helps them
achieve faster aileron response" ? And then how many pilots are taking
off in flapped gliders with negative flaps? Now imagine combination of
negative flaps and open brakes right on the take off. Isn't that a
recipe for disaster? How often ? I don't know exact number but I see it
very frequently. And the most amazing part of that is that the
instructors are teaching it this way. When I asked about it, I never
got a straight answer but everybody is saying "it must be done that
way". O really?

Jacek
CFI-G
Washington State

Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked."

Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had in mind on this
thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and not the use of
checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses a checklist he or she
will never have a tow emergency?The "airbrakes closed and locked" runs
contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting the take off
roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I will
readily admit that it works great when towing trainers though.



Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
view):

Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about aileron authority.

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the procedure differs
when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One of the three local
tow operations used this procedure but then altered it by using the
phraseology of "Canopy locked, controls checked" meaning 1;a positive
control check has been acomplished by the line person who hooked you
up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration for initiating
the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot does not have to
anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I think it sets up a
much better habit pattern.


Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.

No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that conflicts with the
POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an excellent idea to
look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion what so ever with
the tow planes signals.

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
K Urban

Now, this leads me to another point of this subject...how many
pilots are taking off with their brakes open because it "helps them
achieve faster aileron response" ? And then how many pilots are taking
off in flapped gliders with negative flaps?

Jacek, you have to make a distinction here between "taking off" and
starting the take off roll.To answer your question, I would say that
most pilots, when operating an older ship with a CG hook in a crosswind
will use spoilers or negative flap until they get some roll
authority.Another thing to consider is with ships like the ASW20 the
ailerons droop and rise with the flaps.This makes a HUGE difference on
the roll control at slow speeds.It is spelled out in the P.O.H. and
therefore it is considered normal operating procedure.

Isn't that a
recipe for disaster? How often ? I don't know exact number but I see it
very frequently. And the most amazing part of that is that the
instructors are teaching it this way.

Instructors are required to teach compliance with the POH, so I would
say this is perfectly normal.

When I asked about it, I never
got a straight answer but everybody is saying "it must be done that
way". O really?

Jacek
CFI-G
Washington State

Yes, this is exactly my point. All posters have good advises, but
still, the only way to prevent this kind of confusion, which keeps
happening over and over again and occasionly cost life, it to amend the
standard procedure for tow signals to first glimpse at the spoiler
handle, or better yet, at the spoiler itself, in most cases it will be
easier and quicker then looking at the exact handle position. No need
to look at both spoilers. If only one is open then it is another
serious problem.

Ramy

KM wrote:
Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked."

Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had in mind on this
thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and not the use of
checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses a checklist he or she
will never have a tow emergency?The "airbrakes closed and locked" runs
contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting the take off
roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I will
readily admit that it works great when towing trainers though.



Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
view):

Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about aileron authority.

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the procedure differs
when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One of the three local
tow operations used this procedure but then altered it by using the
phraseology of "Canopy locked, controls checked" meaning 1;a positive
control check has been acomplished by the line person who hooked you
up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration for initiating
the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot does not have to
anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I think it sets up a
much better habit pattern.


Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.

No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that conflicts with the
POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an excellent idea to
look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion what so ever with
the tow planes signals.

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
K Urban

Nothing will take the place of really learning and
understanding the signals, reviewing them regularly
and testing for them on every BFR.

If every tow pilot gave the rudder wag on every tenth
tow, pilots would begin to recognize this signal for
what it is.


At 19:31 12 October 2006, Ramy wrote:
Yes, this is exactly my point. All posters have good
advises, but
still, the only way to prevent this kind of confusion,
which keeps
happening over and over again and occasionly cost life,
it to amend the
standard procedure for tow signals to first glimpse
at the spoiler
handle, or better yet, at the spoiler itself, in most
cases it will be
easier and quicker then looking at the exact handle
position. No need
to look at both spoilers. If only one is open then
it is another
serious problem.

Ramy

KM wrote:
Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once
on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes
'airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked.'

Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had
in mind on this
thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and
not the use of
checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses
a checklist he or she
will never have a tow emergency?The 'airbrakes closed
and locked' runs
contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting
the take off
roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I
will
readily admit that it works great when towing trainers
though.



Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the
towpilot's point of
view):

Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about
aileron authority.

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot
closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff
for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew
confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot 'canopy and airbrakes
closed and locked'.

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider
pilot 'understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked.'

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the
procedure differs
when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One
of the three local
tow operations used this procedure but then altered
it by using the
phraseology of 'Canopy locked, controls checked' meaning
1;a positive
control check has been acomplished by the line person
who hooked you
up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration
for initiating
the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot
does not have to
anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I
think it sets up a
much better habit pattern.


Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.

No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that
conflicts with the
POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an
excellent idea to
look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion
what so ever with
the tow planes signals.

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
K Urban

But what if the tow pilot give the wrong signal? Or what if the tow
pilot had difficult climbing, did not realize the glider spoilers are
open (no mirrors) and rocked the wings instead of wigeling the rudder?
My suggestion to take a quick glimpse at the spoiler before releasing
will solve this scenario as well. Tow pilots can make mistakes as well,
especially if they did not practice the signal often. I had quiet a few
cases where I radioed to the tow pilots to turn towards 1 or 2 o'clock
and instead they turned towards 11 or 10 o'clock... (I know we all wear
digital watches these days ;-)
One quick glimpse at the spoiler before pulling the release will not
hurt anyone and only can save lives. The pilot in the accident
mentioned may have cleared the wires if he closed the spoilers first.

Ramy

Nyal Williams wrote:
Nothing will take the place of really learning and
understanding the signals, reviewing them regularly
and testing for them on every BFR.

If every tow pilot gave the rudder wag on every tenth
tow, pilots would begin to recognize this signal for
what it is.


At 19:31 12 October 2006, Ramy wrote:
Yes, this is exactly my point. All posters have good
advises, but
still, the only way to prevent this kind of confusion,
which keeps
happening over and over again and occasionly cost life,
it to amend the
standard procedure for tow signals to first glimpse
at the spoiler
handle, or better yet, at the spoiler itself, in most
cases it will be
easier and quicker then looking at the exact handle
position. No need
to look at both spoilers. If only one is open then
it is another
serious problem.

Ramy

KM wrote:
Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once
on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes
'airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked.'

Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had
in mind on this
thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and
not the use of
checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses
a checklist he or she
will never have a tow emergency?The 'airbrakes closed
and locked' runs
contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting
the take off
roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I
will
readily admit that it works great when towing trainers
though.



Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the
towpilot's point of
view):

Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about
aileron authority.

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot
closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff
for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew
confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot 'canopy and airbrakes
closed and locked'.

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider
pilot 'understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked.'

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the
procedure differs
when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One
of the three local
tow operations used this procedure but then altered
it by using the
phraseology of 'Canopy locked, controls checked' meaning
1;a positive
control check has been acomplished by the line person
who hooked you
up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration
for initiating
the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot
does not have to
anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I
think it sets up a
much better habit pattern.


Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.

No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that
conflicts with the
POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an
excellent idea to
look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion
what so ever with
the tow planes signals.

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
K Urban

Papa3.. I like your third one..

now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land straight
ahead.

We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the tow
is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel beyond
the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can pull the
rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi way).. a good
student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it roll to the end
so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite direction. I've had
other students looking for a place to go and I've had to take over.

Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow is
airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to land...
your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft of good
landable grading beside the runway, whole length.

BT

"Papa3" wrote in message
ups.com...

BT wrote:
how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder wag
at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

What about tow plane aborts on the runway?

I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to avoid
hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it happen to
another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie suddenly
decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the tuggie
left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the canopy.

Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go if
the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far to the
left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an abort if
that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow pilot
training.

Bill Daniels


"BT" wrote in message
news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
Papa3.. I like your third one..

now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
straight ahead.

We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it
roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
to take over.

Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft
of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.

BT

"Papa3" wrote in message
ups.com...

BT wrote:
how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)