Tow Signals

I don't fly both ends of the rope, but it seems to me that we at the
trailing end have fewer adverse effects that can be caused by the pilot
at the other end. In other words, we could cause the tug pilot more
problems that he can cause us. The two times I've been waved off, there
was no mistake about what was intended. To solve the spoiler open
thing... I just fly ships that don't have them (yukin' it up, here)...
Seriously, know and use the signal. Someone posted that there's no
excuse for not having a $200- portable... There's no excuse for not
knowing these important signals. Radios are great but... Radios DO
malfunction... Transmissions DO get walked on... And... you don't get
too much for $200- in a portable. That being the opinion of someone
that does radio for a living.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

good point Bill.. we do address runway aborts in our tuggy training..

normal release.. tug goes left.. glider goes right.
at our airport.. south bound departure.. tuggie goes left.. glider gets the
runway.. or normal departure
we do have a lot of room to the east of the paved runway..
same thing going north.. tuggie stays left (on runway).. glider goes right..
if tuggie can clear left between the taxiways to avoid culverts.. there is
room... glider has more room..

BUT DON"T JUST STOP ON THE RUNWAY... especially if you have been fast enough
to get the glider flying.. you are inviting a rear end collision.

Did not happen to us... but on our airport.. tuggie started moving.. stopped
within 50ft because his window popped open.. glider 2-32 in motion on tow..
no where to go.. another 2-32 parked waiting for the next tow, too close to
the runway.. glider in motion hits parked glider.. two dinged 2-32s

BT

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
What about tow plane aborts on the runway?

I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to
avoid hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it
happen to another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie
suddenly decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the
tuggie left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the
canopy.

Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go
if the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far
to the left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an
abort if that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow
pilot training.

Bill Daniels


"BT" wrote in message
news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
Papa3.. I like your third one..

now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which
way but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
straight ahead.

We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let
it roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
to take over.

Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about
150ft of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.

BT

"Papa3" wrote in message
ups.com...

BT wrote:
how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe
start a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants
me to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

On 12 Oct 2006 08:53:26 -0700, wrote:


Now, this leads me to another point of this subject...how many
pilots are taking off with their brakes open because it "helps them
achieve faster aileron response" ? And then how many pilots are taking
off in flapped gliders with negative flaps? Now imagine combination of
negative flaps and open brakes right on the take off. Isn't that a
recipe for disaster?

Nope.

I do it always this way - because the glider I fly (AS22-2) has an
aileron authority of precisely nil if the airbrakes are not opened and
the wind is less than 15 miles exactly from the front.

Pretty complex since aileron authority starts late and therefore the
flaps have to be kept extended till about 30 kts, immediately followed
by a very smooth move from negativ to neutral flaps.

Some gliders simply require this... unfortunately.

For the ones who wonder: The ASH-25 has a lot better aileron authority
during the first phase of the aerotow.


Bye
Andreas

I had exactly this happen to me, but on a runway too narrow to land
either side. It's remarkable how fast the mind can work, as I had time
to think:

1. Can I land and stop before hitting tug - no.

2. Can I go over the top of tug - no.

3. So it's go to the left (marginally more room), which leaves me
directly in line for the fuel bowser - worry about that once I'm past
the tug.

I flew 3, but there was standing crop to the left which I caught with
the wingtip. Result - a perfect 180 in mid-air and a backwards landing
with no damage to aircraft or crew. Interestingly, there's almost no
ground run on a backwards landing, so we never got near the fuel bowser.

Not sure I could repeat this successfully, and would rather not have to
attempt it.


Bill Daniels wrote:
What about tow plane aborts on the runway?

I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to avoid
hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it happen to
another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie suddenly
decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the tuggie
left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the canopy.

Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go if
the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far to the
left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an abort if
that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow pilot
training.

Bill Daniels


"BT" wrote in message
news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...

Papa3.. I like your third one..

now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
straight ahead.

We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it
roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
to take over.

Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft
of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.

BT

"Papa3" wrote in message
roups.com...

BT wrote:

how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

I doubt it is common, but it does happen. Recent incident - Glider 5-10" AGL, on
the downhill section of runway, when Supecub deposits hot oily bits all over the
windshield. Tuggy has hands full just getting the whole plot on the ground with
the wings on top. ASW22 full of water behind has some excitement avoiding the
suddenly stopping tug, release the rope and land parallel to the tug.

Good thing it was two very experienced pilots, and that both were paying
attention. You can't make the assumption that the tug will be able to continue
the tow, or be able to see to clear the runway, or have a hand free to pull the
red handle.



Bill Daniels wrote:
What about tow plane aborts on the runway?

I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to avoid
hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it happen to
another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie suddenly
decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the tuggie
left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the canopy.

Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go if
the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far to the
left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an abort if
that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow pilot
training.

Bill Daniels


"BT" wrote in message
news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...

Papa3.. I like your third one..

now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
straight ahead.

We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it
roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
to take over.

Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft
of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.

BT

"Papa3" wrote in message
roups.com...

BT wrote:

how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

Actually, since posting the note last evening, I now have 6 e-mails
describing simular runway aborts - all within the last year. Apparently
it's not all that uncommon.

Be careful out there.

Bill Daniels


"Bruce Greef" wrote in message
...
I doubt it is common, but it does happen. Recent incident - Glider 5-10"
AGL, on the downhill section of runway, when Supecub deposits hot oily bits
all over the windshield. Tuggy has hands full just getting the whole plot
on the ground with the wings on top. ASW22 full of water behind has some
excitement avoiding the suddenly stopping tug, release the rope and land
parallel to the tug.

Good thing it was two very experienced pilots, and that both were paying
attention. You can't make the assumption that the tug will be able to
continue the tow, or be able to see to clear the runway, or have a hand
free to pull the red handle.



Bill Daniels wrote:
What about tow plane aborts on the runway?

I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to
avoid hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it
happen to another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie
suddenly decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case,
the tuggie left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto
the canopy.

Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go
if the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far
to the left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an
abort if that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow
pilot training.

Bill Daniels


"BT" wrote in message
news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...

Papa3.. I like your third one..

now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which
way but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
straight ahead.

We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let
it roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
to take over.

Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about
150ft of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.

BT

"Papa3" wrote in message
groups.com...

BT wrote:

how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe
start a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants
me to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

Our club has evolved what seems to me a very sensible strategy for
dealing with spoilers open and similar problems.

If the towpilot is not in trouble -- if the towplane is climbing and at
a safe altitude and position -- he/she will not wag the tail. If the
glider pilot's brain has faded enough that the spoilers are out, it's
clear the pilot is having reduced situational awareness, so adding the
task of interpreting a seldom-used emergency signal does risk being
misinterpreted. A low-altitude release with spoilers out will be
catastrophic, and if the tow is still safe, why risk it.

Instead, the tow pilot will try to raise the pilot on the radio. The
tow pilot will keep climbing, keep trying by radio, and bring the
glider directly over the field before trying a rudder waggle. All this
is in a written tow procedures document that eveyrone has to read and
is reviewed at checkouts and flight reviews.

As I think about it, it might be even better to have the tow pilot
level out at 1,800' over the field until the problem is resolved, to
help ensure the glider will not release with the spoilers still out and
the problem undiagnosed.

This does not mean we ignore standard signals, so don't start flaming
on this. They are there, and pilots and towpilots are all expected to
know them and use them if necessary. If the tow pilot is in any doubt
about the safety of continuing the tow with spoiler out, they can wag
to their hearts' content or take whatever other action is appropriate.
And we also brief wing runners to look for spoilers and canopies, and
pilots to do checklists, etc. etc.

John Cochrane BB

Had one of these 6 weeks ago.
Both of us 15-20' off the ground with 1500+ ft of runway ahead and the
window popped open on the Pawnee. He shut down, angled left; I released,
angled a bit right and banged into a thermal that bounced me to about 80',
providing a little short field landing practice.
Here's the stupid part--my hand was on the divebrakes and I was about to
deploy them, but when the ship started rising I took my hand off! Something
in me said "dive brakes aren't used in thermals". I should have been on the
dive brakes immediately and never gotten as high as I did. It wasn't a big
deal, I didn't even use all of the glide slope control my dear Mosquito
offers. I did behave in a way I wouldn't have predicted--that got my
attention.

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
What about tow plane aborts on the runway?

I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to
avoid hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it
happen to another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie
suddenly decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the
tuggie left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the
canopy.

Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go
if the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far
to the left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an
abort if that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow
pilot training.

Bill Daniels


"BT" wrote in message
news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
Papa3.. I like your third one..

now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which
way but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
straight ahead.

We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let
it roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
to take over.

Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about
150ft of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.

BT

"Papa3" wrote in message
ups.com...

BT wrote:
how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe
start a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants
me to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

SAM 303a wrote:
Had one of these 6 weeks ago.
Both of us 15-20' off the ground with 1500+ ft of runway ahead and the
window popped open on the Pawnee. He shut down, angled left; I released,
angled a bit right and banged into a thermal that bounced me to about 80',
providing a little short field landing practice.
Here's the stupid part--my hand was on the divebrakes and I was about to
deploy them, but when the ship started rising I took my hand off! Something
in me said "dive brakes aren't used in thermals".

If you had thermalled and climbed away, you'd be a true legend--maybe
even gone down in history has having taken the shortest successful (in
one sense) areotow in history.

But it's a good thing you didn't try that...

Jeremy

We had an interesting incident few years ago in an aero retrieve
attempt. They attempted a tow on a slightly up hill and relatively
short dirt runway (should have towed the other way) with power lines at
the end of the runway. The tow plane could not get off the ground on
time and aborted the takeoff, the glider was already in the air, could
not stop before the tow plane and could not land in front of the tow
plane due to the power lines. Luckily he already had enough energy to
zoom up and executed a perfect 180 and landed safely on the nearby
field.

Ramy

Chris Reed wrote:
I had exactly this happen to me, but on a runway too narrow to land
either side. It's remarkable how fast the mind can work, as I had time
to think:

1. Can I land and stop before hitting tug - no.

2. Can I go over the top of tug - no.

3. So it's go to the left (marginally more room), which leaves me
directly in line for the fuel bowser - worry about that once I'm past
the tug.

I flew 3, but there was standing crop to the left which I caught with
the wingtip. Result - a perfect 180 in mid-air and a backwards landing
with no damage to aircraft or crew. Interestingly, there's almost no
ground run on a backwards landing, so we never got near the fuel bowser.

Not sure I could repeat this successfully, and would rather not have to
attempt it.


Bill Daniels wrote:
What about tow plane aborts on the runway?

I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to avoid
hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it happen to
another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie suddenly
decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the tuggie
left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the canopy.

Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go if
the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far to the
left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an abort if
that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow pilot
training.

Bill Daniels


"BT" wrote in message
news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...

Papa3.. I like your third one..

now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
straight ahead.

We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it
roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
to take over.

Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft
of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.

BT

"Papa3" wrote in message
roups.com...

BT wrote:

how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
ready
for something.

BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)