We Are All Spaniards

"S Green" wrote in message
...


Terrorist / freedom two sides of the same coin.

The world is full of them - and it is totally dependent on which end of
the
telescope you look out from.

After all were not the founding fathers terrorists seeking to overthrow
the
legitimate government?

Terrorists are not interested in freedom, and it is ugly of you to pretend
that it is so.

Millions of Spaniards have now come to hate and
despise the terrorists worse than ever before -- a reaction that is
diametrically opposed to what the terrorists sought.

I don't agree, Jay. I doubt the perpetrators of the explosions in Madrid give
a damn what the Spaniards think of them. Do you think they expected their
actions to endear them?

www.Rosspilot.com

I don't agree, Jay. I doubt the perpetrators of the explosions in Madrid
give
a damn what the Spaniards think of them. Do you think they expected their
actions to endear them?

If not to rally men to their cause, for what purpose then?

Ultimately, this is about who is in control. Without the masses, the
terrorists lose.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:57:24 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

However, I will argue that the reality of terrorism can be crushed to a
large degree. Madrid is a wonderful case in point -- did you see the
demonstrations today? Millions of Spaniards have now come to hate and
despise the terrorists worse than ever before -- a reaction that is
diametrically opposed to what the terrorists sought.

This already happened before (in similar relative numbers to the attack) in
Spain. What are you trying to tell us? There is nothing new to it (this
does not mean that it was not cruel and can be played down).

Jay, what so you know about Spanish history?

#m

--
A far-reaching proposal from the FBI (...) would require all broadband
Internet providers, including cable modem and DSL companies, to rewire
their networks to support easy wiretapping by police.
http://news.com.com/2100-1028-5172948.html

Jay, what so you know about Spanish history?

Well, with a minor (that's a secondary college degree, in case that doesn't
translate) in history (albeit 24 years ago), I suspect I know enough to get
me through this discussion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Hi Jay,

I don't see "hunting them down and killing them" as either feasible
or
effective. For every one you kill, there are 10,000 more
waiting to take his place with greater fervor and comittment.

Well, Lee, I understand that the POTENTIAL for terrorism will always
be with
us. That is a sad fact of life.

Yes.

However, I will argue that the reality of terrorism can be crushed to
a
large degree.

It can and should be be fought, whether it can be crushed by force
alone I dispute that.

Madrid is a wonderful case in point -- did you see the
demonstrations today? Millions of Spaniards have now come to hate
and
despise the terrorists worse than ever before

Yes.

-- a reaction that is
diametrically opposed to what the terrorists sought.

No, not at all. They know and even relish the fact, that they are hated
for what they do.

When it becomes obvious that their barbaric tactics have accomplished
precisely nothing

What makes you think that this would be their asessment of
accomplishment? Do you really think they expected people to come over
and bow to Islam as a result of terrorist attacks? Face it, both 9/11
and Madrid were a tremendous success to them. They destroyed what they
hate and caused tremendous grieve to people they consider to have done
them great harm. And as added bonus they are convinced that they will
be rewarded for what they did in the afterlife. What else could they
wish for?

-- AND they are picked off, one by one, and are jailed or
dead -- then (and only then) will terrorism cease to be a significant
threat.

No, not at all. These - should I even call them human beings - have
reached a state of hatred that makes them practically imune against any
reasoning. It makes no difference whatsoever to them, if they are
"picked off one by one" or jailed or dead, as long as in their death
they can wreck havoc and take many more infidels with them.

To think otherwise plays completely into the terrorist's hands.

It is very important to understand the way these sick minds are
working, and how the reasoning you put forward just doesn't occur to
them. Otherwise you arrive at false conclusions about effectiveness of
any considered countermeasures.

Yes, we all of the free societies must stand together to fight this
threat. But to believe that the threat of terrorism can be overcome by
increasing security and military action more and more will lead to the
destruction of precisely what we want to defend, the free society. Some
people have said that in a way Al Quaida has already won in the sad
sense, that much of the freedom that the US stood for (and freedom is
what these people hate most) in the past has vanished already. From
what I read on this newsgroup about TFRs and other ever increasing
restrictions on GA anyway.

regards,
Friedrich

--
for personal email please remove "entfernen." from my adress

Some
people have said that in a way Al Quaida has already won in the sad
sense, that much of the freedom that the US stood for (and freedom is
what these people hate most) in the past has vanished already.

That's nonsense. Let's not play up the hyperbole *too* much, okay?

Bush-haters would have you (and everyone else) believe that our basic
freedoms have been infringed upon in some demonic way, in order to root out
Osama, and that America has already lost the war on terror. Nothing could
be further from the truth.

Let's step back for a moment, take a deep breath, and analyze what has
really changed in our day-to-day lives:

1. We now have to arrive at the airport 2 hours early when we fly
commercially. (Formerly it was 1 hour.)
2. TFRs pop up occasionally when the President travels.
3. Ah, um, hmm.... *Surely* there must be *something* else?

Not. Precisely NOTHING of consequence has changed. Those first two items
impact a tiny, tiny percentage of our society. 99% of Americans don't
notice any difference between pre- and post-9/11 America -- because there
ARE no meaningful changes.

Behind the scenes, "power-to-investigate" kind of stuff *has* changed -- but
these don't effect most people in any but the most peripheral way. And most
of THAT impact is philosophical.

Yes, we all of the free societies must stand together to fight this
threat. But to believe that the threat of terrorism can be overcome by
increasing security and military action more and more will lead to the
destruction of precisely what we want to defend, the free society.

I take comfort from the fact that we were able to beat the Japanese in World
War II -- perhaps the single most warped, hateful, suicidal society in the
history of the world -- and eventually become allies with them. Hell, if
*that* can happen, anything can.

In this war, the trick is to do PRECISELY what Bush has been doing -- fight
terrorists where *they* live. If that means Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, or
the entire Middle East, well, that scenario sure beats waiting until the
*******s put bombs on trains in Chicago, or kill a busload of school kids in
Des Moines.

Bottom line: When you're rooting out an insect infestation, you don't just
kill the roaches in your kitchen -- you go after the nest.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:38:43 +0100, "Friedrich Ostertag"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

Yes, we all of the free societies must stand together to fight this
threat. But to believe that the threat of terrorism can be overcome by
increasing security and military action more and more will lead to the
destruction of precisely what we want to defend, the free society. Some
people have said that in a way Al Quaida has already won in the sad
sense, that much of the freedom that the US stood for (and freedom is
what these people hate most) in the past has vanished already.

On 13 Mar 2004 22:56:41 GMT, Rosspilot wrote:

"Terrorism" (the euphamism for attacks on civilians designed to wreak havoc and
cause fear among the target population) is a tactic. It is here to stay.

And now they only have to name it to bring the system to a halt.

#m

--
A far-reaching proposal from the FBI (...) would require all broadband
Internet providers, including cable modem and DSL companies, to rewire
their networks to support easy wiretapping by police.
http://news.com.com/2100-1028-5172948.html

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
newszJ4c.6689$_w.233787@attbi_s53...
We are all Spaniards today.


Well, Jay -- your post succeeded in one thing. It brought all the usual
apologists for terrorism out of the woodwork.

I guess there are plenty of people even on this news group who somehow think
terrorism is justified if it opposes the United States or its allies.