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#1
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In 7000 hours I had one engine "failure," which was just a loose hose
between the turbocharger and intake manifold. Engine didn't really fail, it just lost boost on that side. I've had some engine anomalies, but nothing that would meet the definition of failure. I would tend to agree that honest-to-goodness failures are very rare when considered in the context of total operating hours for all powered aircraft. Bob Gardner "Captain Wubba" wrote in message om... Howdy. I was discussing with a friend of mine my concerns about flying single-engine planes at night or in hard IFR, due to the possibility of engine failure. My buddy is a CFI/CFII/ATP as well as an A&P, about 3500 hours, and been around airplanes for a long time, so I tend to give credence to his experiences. He asked me how often I thought a piston engine had an in-flight engine failure. I guestimated once every 10,000 hours or so. He said that was *dramatically* over-estimating the failure rate. He said that in his experience it is at least 40,000 to 50,000 hours per in-flight engine failure. The place where he works sometimes as a mechanic has plenty of planes come in for overhauls and annuals, and he estimates that for every plane that has had an engine failure before TBO, at least 20-30 make it to TBO without any failure (which would extrapolate to a similar figure). The flight school he teaches at has 7 Cessnas used for primary training and rental that have flown at least 40,000 hours total in the six years he has been there, and they have not experienced a single engine failure. I emailed Lycoming, and (unsurprisingly) they told me they did not keep records about engine failure rates. So I'd like to find out if anyone has done any objective analysis of certificated, piston-engine failure rates in light airplanes. I have seen all kinds of 'guesses', but little in the way of objective facts. After analyzing NTSB accident data and comparing to annual GA flight-hours, I'm starting to think my friend is on the right track, but that is a relatively small sample, and has some methodologial flaws. It's funny. I know 20,000 hour CFIs who have never had an engine failure, and I also know 300 hour PP-ASELs who have had engine failures. Just for giggles, I asked 8 pilot friends/relatives if they had ever had an engine failure. The only 'yes' was a relative who lost an engine after takeoff on his first solo cross-country in 1958. And I know one other pilot who had an engine failure, who I wasn't able to talk to. So what is it? If the engine-failure rate is one failure for every 50,000 flight hours, I'll feel much less reticent about night/IFR single-engine flying than if it is one in 10,000 hours. Anybody have any facts or hard data, or have any idea where I might be able to track some down? Thanks, Cap |
#2
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Knowing *NOTHING* about turbocharged engines, I was wondering. Would a loss
of the turbocharger still allow the engine to produce the same power as a non-turbo engine of the same size at the same altitude? From the examples I've read in this thread so far, 3 out of 4 are turbocharger failures. Interesting. "Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:G_vwb.294669$Tr4.929561@attbi_s03... In 7000 hours I had one engine "failure," which was just a loose hose between the turbocharger and intake manifold. Engine didn't really fail, it just lost boost on that side. I've had some engine anomalies, but nothing that would meet the definition of failure. I would tend to agree that honest-to-goodness failures are very rare when considered in the context of total operating hours for all powered aircraft. Bob Gardner "Captain Wubba" wrote in message om... Howdy. I was discussing with a friend of mine my concerns about flying single-engine planes at night or in hard IFR, due to the possibility of engine failure. My buddy is a CFI/CFII/ATP as well as an A&P, about 3500 hours, and been around airplanes for a long time, so I tend to give credence to his experiences. He asked me how often I thought a piston engine had an in-flight engine failure. I guestimated once every 10,000 hours or so. He said that was *dramatically* over-estimating the failure rate. He said that in his experience it is at least 40,000 to 50,000 hours per in-flight engine failure. The place where he works sometimes as a mechanic has plenty of planes come in for overhauls and annuals, and he estimates that for every plane that has had an engine failure before TBO, at least 20-30 make it to TBO without any failure (which would extrapolate to a similar figure). The flight school he teaches at has 7 Cessnas used for primary training and rental that have flown at least 40,000 hours total in the six years he has been there, and they have not experienced a single engine failure. I emailed Lycoming, and (unsurprisingly) they told me they did not keep records about engine failure rates. So I'd like to find out if anyone has done any objective analysis of certificated, piston-engine failure rates in light airplanes. I have seen all kinds of 'guesses', but little in the way of objective facts. After analyzing NTSB accident data and comparing to annual GA flight-hours, I'm starting to think my friend is on the right track, but that is a relatively small sample, and has some methodologial flaws. It's funny. I know 20,000 hour CFIs who have never had an engine failure, and I also know 300 hour PP-ASELs who have had engine failures. Just for giggles, I asked 8 pilot friends/relatives if they had ever had an engine failure. The only 'yes' was a relative who lost an engine after takeoff on his first solo cross-country in 1958. And I know one other pilot who had an engine failure, who I wasn't able to talk to. So what is it? If the engine-failure rate is one failure for every 50,000 flight hours, I'll feel much less reticent about night/IFR single-engine flying than if it is one in 10,000 hours. Anybody have any facts or hard data, or have any idea where I might be able to track some down? Thanks, Cap |
#3
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It depends on the type of turbo failure. The typical failure is the bearing
in which case the engine will not make much, if any power. Mike MU-2 "Jeff Franks" wrote in message ... Knowing *NOTHING* about turbocharged engines, I was wondering. Would a loss of the turbocharger still allow the engine to produce the same power as a non-turbo engine of the same size at the same altitude? From the examples I've read in this thread so far, 3 out of 4 are turbocharger failures. Interesting. "Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:G_vwb.294669$Tr4.929561@attbi_s03... In 7000 hours I had one engine "failure," which was just a loose hose between the turbocharger and intake manifold. Engine didn't really fail, it just lost boost on that side. I've had some engine anomalies, but nothing that would meet the definition of failure. I would tend to agree that honest-to-goodness failures are very rare when considered in the context of total operating hours for all powered aircraft. Bob Gardner "Captain Wubba" wrote in message om... Howdy. I was discussing with a friend of mine my concerns about flying single-engine planes at night or in hard IFR, due to the possibility of engine failure. My buddy is a CFI/CFII/ATP as well as an A&P, about 3500 hours, and been around airplanes for a long time, so I tend to give credence to his experiences. He asked me how often I thought a piston engine had an in-flight engine failure. I guestimated once every 10,000 hours or so. He said that was *dramatically* over-estimating the failure rate. He said that in his experience it is at least 40,000 to 50,000 hours per in-flight engine failure. The place where he works sometimes as a mechanic has plenty of planes come in for overhauls and annuals, and he estimates that for every plane that has had an engine failure before TBO, at least 20-30 make it to TBO without any failure (which would extrapolate to a similar figure). The flight school he teaches at has 7 Cessnas used for primary training and rental that have flown at least 40,000 hours total in the six years he has been there, and they have not experienced a single engine failure. I emailed Lycoming, and (unsurprisingly) they told me they did not keep records about engine failure rates. So I'd like to find out if anyone has done any objective analysis of certificated, piston-engine failure rates in light airplanes. I have seen all kinds of 'guesses', but little in the way of objective facts. After analyzing NTSB accident data and comparing to annual GA flight-hours, I'm starting to think my friend is on the right track, but that is a relatively small sample, and has some methodologial flaws. It's funny. I know 20,000 hour CFIs who have never had an engine failure, and I also know 300 hour PP-ASELs who have had engine failures. Just for giggles, I asked 8 pilot friends/relatives if they had ever had an engine failure. The only 'yes' was a relative who lost an engine after takeoff on his first solo cross-country in 1958. And I know one other pilot who had an engine failure, who I wasn't able to talk to. So what is it? If the engine-failure rate is one failure for every 50,000 flight hours, I'll feel much less reticent about night/IFR single-engine flying than if it is one in 10,000 hours. Anybody have any facts or hard data, or have any idea where I might be able to track some down? Thanks, Cap |
#4
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"Mike Rapoport" writes:
Knowing *NOTHING* about turbocharged engines, I was wondering. Would a loss of the turbocharger still allow the engine to produce the same power as a non-turbo engine of the same size at the same altitude? From the It depends on the type of turbo failure. The typical failure is the bearing in which case the engine will not make much, if any power. It apparently depends on the system too. For my plane, it's recommended to shut off the turbos for takeoff below 1000'. I've also flown quite a few hours with blown turbo bearings, so I think it's safe to say it does not cause a huge decrease in power. --kyler |
#5
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"Jeff Franks" wrote in message
... Knowing *NOTHING* about turbocharged engines, I was wondering. Would a loss of the turbocharger still allow the engine to produce the same power as a non-turbo engine of the same size at the same altitude? Depends on the failure, but sure...a failure like Bob describes simply results in partial power loss, turning the engine into a close approximation of the normally-aspirated version. |
#6
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"Captain Wubba" wrote in message
om... Howdy. I was discussing with a friend of mine my concerns about flying single-engine planes at night or in hard IFR, due to the possibility of engine failure. My buddy is a CFI/CFII/ATP as well as an A&P, about 3500 hours, and been around airplanes for a long time, so I tend to give credence to his experiences. He asked me how often I thought a piston engine had an in-flight engine failure. I guestimated once every 10,000 hours or so. He said that was *dramatically* over-estimating the failure rate. He said that in his experience it is I would say the failure rate is not uniform, and would depend a lot on how the aircraft are maintained and utilized. Ex: the large univesity flight school I went to that flies on the order of 10,000 hours a year, has had no engine failures in the past 10 years that weren't due to pilot error. However, the company I towed banners for had two complete engine failures and two partial power failures in the two 3 month seasons I worked for them. In my 1100 hours, I've had one quit on takeoff when a mag that was improperly torqued down slipped and put the ignition way out of time, and one partial power loss when a leaky oil control ring finally let go and fouled out one cylinder. And be careful using NTSB data for your analysis, as not all engine failures are cause for a report; both of mine ended with me making it home and no bent metal, so they aren't in the database. -- Mike |
#7
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"Mike O'Malley" wrote in message ... "Captain Wubba" wrote in message om... Howdy. I was discussing with a friend of mine my concerns about flying single-engine planes at night or in hard IFR, due to the possibility of engine failure. My buddy is a CFI/CFII/ATP as well as an A&P, about 3500 hours, and been around airplanes for a long time, so I tend to give credence to his experiences. He asked me how often I thought a piston engine had an in-flight engine failure. I guestimated once every 10,000 hours or so. He said that was *dramatically* over-estimating the failure rate. He said that in his experience it is I would say the failure rate is not uniform, and would depend a lot on how the aircraft are maintained and utilized. Ex: the large univesity flight school I went to that flies on the order of 10,000 hours a year, has had no engine failures in the past 10 years that weren't due to pilot error. However, the company I towed banners for had two complete engine failures and two partial power failures in the two 3 month seasons I worked for them. In my 1100 hours, I've had one quit on takeoff when a mag that was improperly torqued down slipped and put the ignition way out of time, and one partial power loss when a leaky oil control ring finally let go and fouled out one cylinder. And be careful using NTSB data for your analysis, as not all engine failures are cause for a report; both of mine ended with me making it home and no bent metal, so they aren't in the database. I had an engine failure (sort of on landing) when a plug failed. I noticed it after landing at Everglades City. I put on some power to turn and backtrack and boy did the engine run rough. I then spent a couple of hours speculating about what would have been the result if I had screwed up the final approach and had to go around again. The engine did not like full power. My home base runways are small than Everglades City so it was not too bad. |
#8
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#9
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snip There are no real stats on engine failures because engine manufacturers and the FAA don't want those stats to exist. The FAA could create those stats simply by requiring pilots to report engine failures for other than fuel exhaustion/contamination reasons, but will not. Michael Even if the FAA did require reporting those failures, without also requiring pilots/annuals to report to the FAA all the total accumulated hours, the failure numbers would be useless. (However, I am not an A&P and do not know if these numbers are reported - I doubt it) |
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