Tamed by the Tailwheel

"Marty" wrote in message
...

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

Selecting between the two types of landings is a decision
that is not made when landing a tricycle gear. Stick motion
during flare, aircraft attitude, the visual picture, etc.
are all subtly different between the two types of landings.
You're really building two different skill sets and you want
to be firmly in one or the other.

I would agree with this.
DH

Dudley, et al,

I have heard from all types, but I query you.
In the proccess of landing, what determines for you whether a full
stall "3 point" or a wheel landing is warranted.

I have heard winds, particularly crosswinds are the main factor.

Then I rode with a Delta 727 Capt. (He later took command of a B777)
in his Super Cub, we landed with a nasty, gusty crosswind. I got it on
final (me a student), then he took it to a full stall landing and I
paid attention to the rudder pedal movement. The pedals made
ever-so-slight corrections, the nose hardly moved off centerline. Then
the plane met earth ever-so-gently. I noticed that he never quit
"flying" till it was shut down in front of the hangar. It was the most
rewarding flight of my student year.
To this day, all I can think is, "Damn! This Guy is good!"
I applied the experience to my time in a Decathalon but I never got
THAT good at it.
I'll reserve his answer to this queston for later.
Blue Skies,
Marty

After a thorough checkout in tailwheels, (actually even in trikes) one
of the things you'll come away with if you have had a good instructor is
that things in flying are never black and white. It's true that
instruction by some favors that approach, but I don't.
Flying an approach is a constantly changing dynamic with the existing
wind all the way through the approach.
You should pretty well have in your mind the type of landing you are
going to make in a tailwheel airplane from at least the base turn on in.
You can feel the airplane, feel the effect of the existing wind, and you
should have all that well planted in your brain as it applies to the
runway you're planning to land on by the base turn. You know the
crosswind limit for the airplane (I believe it's 17kts for the SD). By
the time you have made the base to final turn and established what
correction you need to maintain runway heading on final, you should
start planning the landing.
The Decathlon handles very well in a crosswind. I've never had a problem
with it. You do however want to consider the prop clearance on a grass
runway wheel landing. It used to be possible to compress the struts
going over a bump and catch the prop tips if you were holding in some
forward elevator. Haven't flown the new ones and they might be better
now in this respect...but be warned anyway :-)
The choice of landing is a personal one, based on existing conditions at
the time of each individual approach. The SD will do a very nice 3 point
landing...or even a tailwheel first landing, but I don't like these all
that much. I much prefer a tail low wheel landing with the tailwheel a
bit off the runway until after touchdown. As I said, NOTHING in flying
is written in stone. You are well advised to get rid of any firm "do
this when this happens" approach, and instead develop a hands on real
time fluid approach to flying airplanes in general, and tailwheels in
particular.
Bottom line, you observe the situation........you fly the airplane in
that situation....you choose early....then fly your choice. Just don't
change your mind in mid flare.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

I had around 400 hours in a Super Decathlon before moving to an Extra (which
by the way is a lot easier to land, even though the visibility is much
worse).

It seemed to me that for a while I was trying inputs and settings
mechanically, but then it just clicked and then it became mostly by
feel-just a glimpse at the airspeed on base or final, with the stick forces,
sound, and sink rate being good indicators of airspeed rather than focusing
on the panel.

Wheel landings were a bit easier, but used a lot of runway and wore the
tires faster. Also, even though it might be easier to touch down in
crosswinds, there will come a moment during the roll out where the speed
will be as slow as in a three point landing- during the transition moment
just before the tailwheel comes down.

All of my instructors wanted us to be proficient in both techniques under
all conditions. The Extra, which comes in over the fence at around 90 knots,
is much easier to land in cross winds, since the cross wind component
relative to the aircraft speed is quite low. Also, being a low wing plane
with a high wing loading makes cross winds much easier to deal with.

Regardless, flying a taildragger is definitely a humbling experience
compared to your average spam can.

Viperdoc... you're in the Milwaukee area, right?
Have you ever flown with Billie?

Viperdoc wrote:
I had around 400 hours in a Super Decathlon before moving to an Extra (which
by the way is a lot easier to land, even though the visibility is much
worse).

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Marty" wrote in message
...

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

Selecting between the two types of landings is a decision
that is not made when landing a tricycle gear. Stick motion
during flare, aircraft attitude, the visual picture, etc.
are all subtly different between the two types of landings.
You're really building two different skill sets and you want
to be firmly in one or the other.

I would agree with this.
DH

Dudley, et al,

I have heard from all types, but I query you.
In the proccess of landing, what determines for you whether a full stall
"3 point" or a wheel landing is warranted.

I have heard winds, particularly crosswinds are the main factor.

Then I rode with a Delta 727 Capt. (He later took command of a B777) in
his Super Cub, we landed with a nasty, gusty crosswind. I got it on final
(me a student), then he took it to a full stall landing and I paid
attention to the rudder pedal movement. The pedals made ever-so-slight
corrections, the nose hardly moved off centerline. Then the plane met
earth ever-so-gently. I noticed that he never quit "flying" till it was
shut down in front of the hangar. It was the most rewarding flight of my
student year.
To this day, all I can think is, "Damn! This Guy is good!"
I applied the experience to my time in a Decathalon but I never got THAT
good at it.
I'll reserve his answer to this queston for later.
Blue Skies,
Marty

After a thorough checkout in tailwheels, (actually even in trikes) one of
the things you'll come away with if you have had a good instructor is that
things in flying are never black and white. It's true that instruction by
some favors that approach, but I don't.
Flying an approach is a constantly changing dynamic with the existing wind
all the way through the approach.
You should pretty well have in your mind the type of landing you are going
to make in a tailwheel airplane from at least the base turn on in. You can
feel the airplane, feel the effect of the existing wind, and you should
have all that well planted in your brain as it applies to the runway
you're planning to land on by the base turn. You know the crosswind limit
for the airplane (I believe it's 17kts for the SD). By the time you have
made the base to final turn and established what correction you need to
maintain runway heading on final, you should start planning the landing.
The Decathlon handles very well in a crosswind. I've never had a problem
with it. You do however want to consider the prop clearance on a grass
runway wheel landing. It used to be possible to compress the struts going
over a bump and catch the prop tips if you were holding in some forward
elevator. Haven't flown the new ones and they might be better now in this
respect...but be warned anyway :-)
The choice of landing is a personal one, based on existing conditions at
the time of each individual approach. The SD will do a very nice 3 point
landing...or even a tailwheel first landing, but I don't like these all
that much. I much prefer a tail low wheel landing with the tailwheel a bit
off the runway until after touchdown. As I said, NOTHING in flying is
written in stone. You are well advised to get rid of any firm "do this
when this happens" approach, and instead develop a hands on real time
fluid approach to flying airplanes in general, and tailwheels in
particular.
Bottom line, you observe the situation........you fly the airplane in that
situation....you choose early....then fly your choice. Just don't change
your mind in mid flare.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net


Thanks Dudley,

Later during some acro training, I asked the now a 777 Capt.how he would
have handled a not-so-pretty landing I had just made in the SD (which he had
observed). His answer in short, "Hard to say, I wasn't flying it".
My personal preference is the tail low or full stall, the tail has to come
down sometime, doesn't it? ;-)
The only plane I routinely wheel landed was a slow but comfy '39 Fairchild
24. Ahhh, memories!

Marty

I think you did well. Those windspeeds are not for learning!

It is definitely easier on grass ("the grass tarmac") than on asphalt.

I am always ready to convert a wheel landing into a three-pointer.
It's never happened that I intend a three-pointer and convert it to a
wheelie, but if it should happen that way, why not?


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:58:11 -0600, "Marty"
wrote:

what determines for you whether a full stall "3
point" or a wheel landing is warranted.

I always prefer the wheelie. It's how you would land the plane if you
never landed a plane before; it's a fine and natural thing, even
though it actually takes more training. With practice you can stop the
plane in about the same stretch of runway. (That said, I'd use a
three-point for short-field landings.) It's safer in a crosswind. I'm
wary making wheel landings downwind, but nothing untoward has ever
happened or threatened to happen, and it's a good idea anyhow to get
the tailwheel on the ground as quickly as possible.

Most of my experience is in the J-3, but I've also flown a Husky,
PA-18, and Great Lakes. All the landings in the Lakes were
three-point, because that's what my instructor wanted me to do.

In the Husky, I made wheelies even on short fields (500 feet), again
because that's what my instructor wanted me to do.

You pretty much know, before the wheels touch, whether your tail is
high enough, and if it isn't you simply announce firmly: "This is now
three-point," and there's plenty of time to get the stick back. I find
it useful to make that announcement even if there is no one else in
the aircraft, which is usually the case.




-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

I have a lot of time with Bill, who did my initial tailwheel training and
helped me find my Decathlon as well. Simply put he is the best instructor
I've ever had the opportunity to fly with as well as a great guy.

Of course, I still give him a hard time about his red Decathlon, and the
fact that you can't even tell where he used a paint roller for the paint
job.

No one flies a Super D better than Billie!
Ask him if he still has his chicken suit.

Viperdoc wrote:
I have a lot of time with Bill, who did my initial tailwheel training and
helped me find my Decathlon as well. Simply put he is the best instructor
I've ever had the opportunity to fly with as well as a great guy.
Of course, I still give him a hard time about his red Decathlon, and the
fact that you can't even tell where he used a paint roller for the paint
job.

My personal preference is the tail low or full stall, the tail has to
come
down sometime, doesn't it? ;-)

Most of these taildraggers won't go full stall in three point
attitude. The deck angle is too low. So even in a three-point
touchdown the wing is still at work and in a crosswind things can get
nasty if the pilot thinks the airplane is done flying. In our 7ECA and
7GCBC we do wheel landings for stronger crosswinds; that allows us to
get the thing planted, then deal with the crosswind and other stuff.
One thing at a time. The older models with the oleo gear (instead of
the newer spring steel leaf) were worse, since that gear was soft and
the crosswind pushing on the fuselage would tip the airplane a bit, and
then the wind would get under the wing and cause trouble. They ran out
of aileron and rudder as the rollout slowed thru 20 kt or so, just as
the student thought he was safe.
And yes, the leaf gear will spread far enough on a bounce to allow a
prop strike.

Dan

Just a thought, If you having difficulty holding your approach speed, I
am guessing you may not be trimming it properly.

I admit I haven't flown the Decathlon but have many hours in Aeronca,
Citabria and Scouts. I suspect the Decathlon is simlar in that the trim
in very effective and sensitive and the pitch controls are fairly
heavy.

Trim it out for about 85 before you turn base. If you can't let go of
the stick after that and have the airplane continue doing about the
same in pitch and maintain about 85 you don't have it trimmed very
well.

Then control your approach altitude with Throttle, Turns or Slips, not
necessarily in that order.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL