transparancy/member information

It has now been 3 weeks since the board has posted minutes from excom meeting and no minutes from board meeting are yet posted .
in late sept, we had a flurry of posted minutes of excom meeting, some posted just 2 days after the meeting was held.
point is.. they have the minutes and they have in recent past posted same in timely manner.

At the beginning of this process, we were told that information would be provided.

there are two issues here.
1. for some reason the posting of excom and board minutes has been delayed beyond what we have seen in very recent past.
2. the most recent excom minutes were, imho, edited to delete any summary or substance of the discussion of alternatives or opposing points of views.

how are we to follow the process if we are not given a peek into what is going on. How are we to make our opinions known to our directors if we are not aware of the issues that they are probably divided upon?

what is happening now is that major decisions are being made and a major restructuring being undertaken by a very small group of appointed and well meaning people who are supervised by another appointed, and smaller still, group of well meaning volunteers.

Dissenting opinions are important to the process. circling the wagons and providing sanitized summaries of actions taken is counterproductive.

The restructuring and recovery can be done in an open manner or it can be controlled by a few and information guarded.
There will be factions within the membership and the decision makers battling for each of their sacred cows. That is OK and as it should be. But it is necessary for the membership as a whole to at least be aware of what the hard choices are and of the arguments by opposing sides.
Likewise I believe that we have not been told even a small part of the story in terms of discussions of how to handle the current mess. I realize that there are legal reasons for not publicly discussing certain matters.

I would like to know if a golden parachute was provided to the ex ED when he resigned. if so how much and why.

I think that posting anonymously on that topic falls only a tad shy of
fulfilling the definition of "irony."

LOL@Bob - That's what many of us have been saying to him right along.
It's not that some of what he says doesn't have merit - it's that his
unwillingness to either identify himself and/or actually get involved
in fixing things (other than writing complaining posts) is a major
detraction from any valid points that he might make.

Bob Kuykendall wrote:
I think that posting anonymously on that topic falls only a tad shy of
fulfilling the definition of "irony."

Jay wrote:
LOL@Bob - That's what many of us have been saying to him right along.
It's not that some of what he says doesn't have merit - it's that his
unwillingness to either identify himself and/or actually get involved
in fixing things (other than writing complaining posts) is a major
detraction from any valid points that he might make.

Bob Kuykendall wrote:
I think that posting anonymously on that topic falls only a tad shy of
fulfilling the definition of "irony."


Who cares who this person is .. His posts are more thought thru and
constructive than all the angry drible that many posters have expressed
because he wont divulge his idenity.

Gotta go now must go see if my bookeeper's done with the 3rd quarter
tax reports and sign them.

OK lets deal with this issue of my name..
1. I am not a member of the board or of any other association or club or part of any commercial interest related in any way to soaring. i am a simple member for past 15 years period end of conversation.
Plain english. I am not speaking with any hidden agenda. If you don't believe that tough **** and put me on ignore.

2. I choose not to post my name for a wide variety of reasons that make a whole lot of sense to me and have absolutly nothing to do with soaring. Not the least of which is that I have terminal cancer and am about to begin some very heavy surgeries (not for the first time), which probably will not be too successful.. OK get it.. i choose not to put my name out there because i do not want my wife to have to deal with wingnuts who took my name off the internet during this time.. That is only reason #1.. there are several others that are frankly none of your stinking business and which have absolutly no connection to soaring and which do not impact the validity of my comments on this board.
SO dig it or put me on ignore.

3. Ideas, opinions and suggestions should be dealt with by a reader based upon their merits and not upon the signiture. That is one of my problems with some organizations (the ssa included, but not exclusively) All too often "BIG NAMES" use their celebrity to branch out . Do you really want Barbara Striesand m making foreign policy? is she really qualified? There are a heck of a l;ot of people who will listen to her or read her ramblings just because she signs them. But in fact isn't it the idea that is important?

My ideas, comments and analysis is offered in a pure form. There are no hidden agendas.
So far the jerks on this board who are circling the wagons around the establishment that took us down this path have sought to divert a reasonable discussion of my ideas and opinions by making a lack of a signiture the issue, NOT THE IDEAS.. I feel sad for the SSA and for those who fall for this well proven tried and true tactic . It is employeed by many people including athletes who get busted for steriods or such and then try to divert the conversation to the system or some other nonesense. Politicians are masters of this game. IT IS A GAME PLAYED TO DIVERT A DISCUSSION AWAY FROM THE ISSUES.
THAT IS WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING.. plain and simple.. you are seeking to make my lack of a signiture the issue, not the points that i raise. Over the past weeks there have only been one or two responses that presented rational differing points of view. That is a shame. I have certainly raised many issues that need to be discussed.

So once again I have raised the issue of the board hiding stuff from members.. And now There are those who choose NOT to directly discuss or to comment on THE ISSUE.. but who are trying to say that since i am not putting my name on the idea the idea is not valid. That is a logic that simply does not stand up and is total bull****.

So for you two who are circling the wagons... just how do you feel about the issue??? how do you feel that the board is not being forthcoming and that transparancy is not happening???

you now know that i am in no way connected commercially or organizationally in any way with soaring. I am a simple pilot who flies often. thats it.

I also have the experience and ability to understand this mess. while we are at it.. NO I WILL NOT BE PHYSICALLY ABLE TO RUN FOR DIRECTOR OR TO ASSUME ANY ACTIVE ROLE.. I AM DYING

SCREW YOU GUYS!!!

5bg




"Jay" wrote in message ups.com...
LOL@Bob - That's what many of us have been saying to him right along.
It's not that some of what he says doesn't have merit - it's that his
unwillingness to either identify himself and/or actually get involved
in fixing things (other than writing complaining posts) is a major
detraction from any valid points that he might make.

Bob Kuykendall wrote:
I think that posting anonymously on that topic falls only a tad shy of
fulfilling the definition of "irony."

I like this guy!

-EX

On Oct 18, 6:16*pm, "5-BG" 5-bghatesspam @ fake.com wrote:
OK lets deal with this issue of my name..
1. I am not a member of the board or of any other association or club or part of any commercial interest related in any way to soaring. i am a simple member for past 15 years period end of conversation.
*Plain english. I am not speaking with any hidden agenda. If you don't believe that tough **** and put me on ignore.

2. I choose not to post my name for a wide variety of reasons that make a whole lot of sense to me and have absolutly nothing to do with soaring. Not the least of which is that I have terminal cancer *and am about to begin some very heavy surgeries (not for the first time), which probably will not be too successful.. OK get it.. i choose not to put my name out there because i do not want my wife to have to deal with wingnuts who took my name off the internet *during this time.. That is only reason #1.. there are several others that are frankly none of your stinking business and which have absolutly no connection to soaring and which do not impact the validity of my comments on this board.
* SO dig it or put me on ignore.

* 3. Ideas, opinions and suggestions should be dealt with by a reader based upon their merits and not upon the signiture. That is one of my problems with some organizations (the ssa included, but not exclusively) All too often "BIG NAMES" use their celebrity to branch out . *Do you really want Barbara Striesand m making foreign policy? is she really qualified? There are a heck of a l;ot of people who will listen to her or read her ramblings just because she signs them. But in fact isn't it the idea that is important?

* My ideas, comments and analysis is offered in a pure form. There are no hidden agendas.
*So far the jerks on this board who are circling the wagons around the establishment that took us down this path have sought to divert *a reasonable discussion of my ideas and opinions *by making a lack of a signiture the issue, NOT THE IDEAS.. I feel sad for the SSA and for those who fall for this *well proven tried and true tactic . It is employeed by many people including athletes who get busted for steriods or such and then try to divert the conversation to the system or some other nonesense. Politicians are masters of this game. IT IS A GAME PLAYED TO DIVERT A DISCUSSION AWAY FROM THE ISSUES.
*THAT IS WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING.. plain and simple.. you are seeking to make my lack of a signiture the issue, not the points that i raise. Over the past weeks there have only been one or two responses that presented rational differing points of view. *That is a shame. I have certainly raised many issues that need to be discussed.

* So once again I have raised the issue of the board hiding stuff from members.. And now There are those who choose NOT to directly discuss or to comment on THE ISSUE.. but who are trying to say that since i am not putting my name on the idea *the idea is not valid. That is a logic that simply does not stand up and is total bull****.

* So for you two *who are circling the wagons... just how do you feel about the issue??? how do you feel that the board is not being forthcoming and that transparancy is not happening???

* you now know that i am in no way connected commercially or organizationally in any way with soaring. I am a simple pilot who flies often. thats it.

* I also have the experience and ability to understand this mess. *while we are at it.. NO I WILL NOT BE PHYSICALLY ABLE TO RUN FOR DIRECTOR OR TO ASSUME ANY ACTIVE ROLE.. I AM DYING

SCREW YOU GUYS!!!

5bg

* "Jay" wrote in oglegroups.com...
* LOL@Bob - That's what many of us have been saying to him right along.
* It's not that some of what he says doesn't have merit - it's that his
* unwillingness to either identify himself and/or actually get involved
* in fixing things (other than writing complaining posts) is a major
* detraction from any valid points that he might make.

* Bob Kuykendall wrote:
* I think that posting anonymously on that topic falls only a tad shy of
* fulfilling the definition of "irony."

Wooooooowwwwwwwwwww, that revelation makes everything else seem
mundane. Shuts down the spirit a little. So, here I am getting a new
glider , not a care in the world and another is facing the ultimate
personal challenge. So, what do we do.....5-BG, you keep
typing.....everyone knows not to ask who you are....and the discussion
will go on. 5-BG....email me or call, my number is listed in the
members section. Great! My damn dog ate my pie while typing, that
really ****es me off.
5-BG wrote:
OK lets deal with this issue of my name..
1. I am not a member of the board or of any other association or club or part of any commercial interest related in any way to soaring. i am a simple member for past 15 years period end of conversation.
Plain english. I am not speaking with any hidden agenda. If you don't believe that tough **** and put me on ignore.

2. I choose not to post my name for a wide variety of reasons that make a whole lot of sense to me and have absolutly nothing to do with soaring. Not the least of which is that I have terminal cancer and am about to begin some very heavy surgeries (not for the first time), which probably will not be too successful.. OK get it.. i choose not to put my name out there because i do not want my wife to have to deal with wingnuts who took my name off the internet during this time.. That is only reason #1.. there are several others that are frankly none of your stinking business and which have absolutly no connection to soaring and which do not impact the validity of my comments on this board.
SO dig it or put me on ignore.

3. Ideas, opinions and suggestions should be dealt with by a reader based upon their merits and not upon the signiture. That is one of my problems with some organizations (the ssa included, but not exclusively) All too often "BIG NAMES" use their celebrity to branch out . Do you really want Barbara Striesand m making foreign policy? is she really qualified? There are a heck of a l;ot of people who will listen to her or read her ramblings just because she signs them. But in fact isn't it the idea that is important?

My ideas, comments and analysis is offered in a pure form. There are no hidden agendas.
So far the jerks on this board who are circling the wagons around the establishment that took us down this path have sought to divert a reasonable discussion of my ideas and opinions by making a lack of a signiture the issue, NOT THE IDEAS.. I feel sad for the SSA and for those who fall for this well proven tried and true tactic . It is employeed by many people including athletes who get busted for steriods or such and then try to divert the conversation to the system or some other nonesense. Politicians are masters of this game. IT IS A GAME PLAYED TO DIVERT A DISCUSSION AWAY FROM THE ISSUES.
THAT IS WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING.. plain and simple.. you are seeking to make my lack of a signiture the issue, not the points that i raise. Over the past weeks there have only been one or two responses that presented rational differing points of view. That is a shame. I have certainly raised many issues that need to be discussed.

So once again I have raised the issue of the board hiding stuff from members.. And now There are those who choose NOT to directly discuss or to comment on THE ISSUE.. but who are trying to say that since i am not putting my name on the idea the idea is not valid. That is a logic that simply does not stand up and is total bull****.

So for you two who are circling the wagons... just how do you feel about the issue??? how do you feel that the board is not being forthcoming and that transparancy is not happening???

you now know that i am in no way connected commercially or organizationally in any way with soaring. I am a simple pilot who flies often. thats it.

I also have the experience and ability to understand this mess. while we are at it.. NO I WILL NOT BE PHYSICALLY ABLE TO RUN FOR DIRECTOR OR TO ASSUME ANY ACTIVE ROLE.. I AM DYING

SCREW YOU GUYS!!!

5bg




"Jay" wrote in message ups.com...
LOL@Bob - That's what many of us have been saying to him right along.
It's not that some of what he says doesn't have merit - it's that his
unwillingness to either identify himself and/or actually get involved
in fixing things (other than writing complaining posts) is a major
detraction from any valid points that he might make.

Bob Kuykendall wrote:
I think that posting anonymously on that topic falls only a tad shy of
fulfilling the definition of "irony."

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DIVFONT face=ArialOK lets deal with this issue of my name../FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial1. I am not a member of the board or of any other
association or club or part of any commercial interest related in any way to
soaring. i am a simple member for past 15 years period end of
conversation./FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial Plain english. I am not speaking with any hidden
agenda. If you don't believe that tough **** and put me on ignore./FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial2. I choose not to post my name for a wide variety of
reasons that make a whole lot of sense to me and have absolutly nothing to do
with soaring. Not the least of which is that I have terminal cancer  and am
about to begin some very heavy surgeries (not for the first time), which
probably will not be too successful.. OK get it.. i choose not to put my name
out there because i do not want my wife to have to deal with wingnuts who
took my name off the internet  during this time.. That is only reason #1..
there are several others that are frankly none of your stinking business and
which have absolutly no connection to soaring and which do not impact the
validity of my comments on this board./FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial  SO dig it or put me on ignore. /FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial  3. Ideas, opinions and suggestions should be dealt
with by a reader based upon their merits and not upon the signiture. That is one
of my problems with some organizations (the ssa included, but not exclusively)
All too often "BIG NAMES" use their celebrity to branch out .  Do you
really want Barbara Striesand m making foreign policy? is she really qualified?
There are a heck of a l;ot of people who will listen to her or read her
ramblings just because she signs them. But in fact isn't it the idea that is
important?/FONT/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial  My ideas, comments and analysis is offered in a
pure form. There are no hidden agendas. /FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial So far the jerks on this board who are circling the
wagons around the establishment that took us down this path have sought to
divert  a reasonable discussion of my ideas and opinions  by making a
lack of a signiture the issue, NOT THE IDEAS.. I feel sad for the SSA and for
those who fall for this  well proven tried and true tactic . It is
employeed by many people including athletes who get busted for steriods or such
and then try to divert the conversation to the system or some other nonesense.
Politicians are masters of this game. IT IS A GAME PLAYED TO DIVERT A
DISCUSSION AWAY FROM THE ISSUES./FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial THAT IS WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING.. plain and simple..
you are seeking to make my lack of a signiture the issue, not the points that i
raise. Over the past weeks there have only been one or two responses that
presented rational differing points of view. /FONT FONT face=ArialThat
is a shame. I have certainly raised many issues that need to be
discussed./FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial  So once again I have raised the issue of the board
hiding stuff from members.. And now There are those who choose NOT to directly
discuss or to comment on THE ISSUE.. but who are trying to say that since i am
not putting my name on the idea  the idea is not valid. That is a logic
that simply does not stand up and is total bull****./FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial  So for you two  who are circling the wagons...
just how do you feel about the issue??? how do you feel that the board is not
being forthcoming and that transparancy is not happening???/FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial  you now know that i am in no way connected
commercially or organizationally in any way with soaring. I am a simple pilot
who flies often. thats it./FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial  I also have the experience and ability to
understand this mess.  while we are at it.. NO I WILL NOT BE PHYSICALLY
ABLE TO RUN FOR DIRECTOR OR TO ASSUME ANY ACTIVE ROLE.. I AM
DYING>>/FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=ArialSCREW YOU GUYS!!!/FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial5bg/FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial   /FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial  /FONT/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE
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DIV"Jay" <A /A>
wrote in message A
glegroups.com"news:1161200764.749594.65450@h48g20 00cwc.googlegroups.com/A.../DIVA
href="mailto:LOL@Bob"LOL@Bob/A - That's what many of us have been saying to
him right along.BRIt's not that some of what he says doesn't have merit -
it's that hisBRunwillingness to either identify himself and/or actually get
involvedBRin fixing things (other than writing complaining posts) is a
majorBRdetraction from any valid points that he might make.BRBRBob
Kuykendall wrote:BR> I think that posting anonymously on that topic falls
only a tad shy ofBR> fulfilling the definition of
"irony."BR/BLOCKQUOTE/BODY/HTML

------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C6F2B7.B4B14050--

"5-BG" 5-bghatesspam @ fake.com
wrote I AM DYING



SCREW YOU GUYS!!!



5bg







Hmmm. my troll meter just went off the scale!



Lennie.. Lennie.. Is that you?





Larry Goddard

"01" USA

That explains it all!

Sorry about your health, and I wish you a easy passage to the other side.

--
Hartley Falbaum
"5-BG" 5-bghatesspam @ fake.com wrote in message ...
OK lets deal with this issue of my name..
1. I am not a member of the board or of any other association or club or part of any commercial interest related in any way to soaring. i am a simple member for past 15 years period end of conversation.
Plain english. I am not speaking with any hidden agenda. If you don't believe that tough **** and put me on ignore.

2. I choose not to post my name for a wide variety of reasons that make a whole lot of sense to me and have absolutly nothing to do with soaring. Not the least of which is that I have terminal cancer and am about to begin some very heavy surgeries (not for the first time), which probably will not be too successful.. OK get it.. i choose not to put my name out there because i do not want my wife to have to deal with wingnuts who took my name off the internet during this time.. That is only reason #1.. there are several others that are frankly none of your stinking business and which have absolutly no connection to soaring and which do not impact the validity of my comments on this board.
SO dig it or put me on ignore.

3. Ideas, opinions and suggestions should be dealt with by a reader based upon their merits and not upon the signiture. That is one of my problems with some organizations (the ssa included, but not exclusively) All too often "BIG NAMES" use their celebrity to branch out . Do you really want Barbara Striesand m making foreign policy? is she really qualified? There are a heck of a l;ot of people who will listen to her or read her ramblings just because she signs them. But in fact isn't it the idea that is important?

My ideas, comments and analysis is offered in a pure form. There are no hidden agendas.
So far the jerks on this board who are circling the wagons around the establishment that took us down this path have sought to divert a reasonable discussion of my ideas and opinions by making a lack of a signiture the issue, NOT THE IDEAS.. I feel sad for the SSA and for those who fall for this well proven tried and true tactic . It is employeed by many people including athletes who get busted for steriods or such and then try to divert the conversation to the system or some other nonesense. Politicians are masters of this game. IT IS A GAME PLAYED TO DIVERT A DISCUSSION AWAY FROM THE ISSUES.
THAT IS WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING.. plain and simple.. you are seeking to make my lack of a signiture the issue, not the points that i raise. Over the past weeks there have only been one or two responses that presented rational differing points of view. That is a shame. I have certainly raised many issues that need to be discussed.

So once again I have raised the issue of the board hiding stuff from members.. And now There are those who choose NOT to directly discuss or to comment on THE ISSUE.. but who are trying to say that since i am not putting my name on the idea the idea is not valid. That is a logic that simply does not stand up and is total bull****.

So for you two who are circling the wagons... just how do you feel about the issue??? how do you feel that the board is not being forthcoming and that transparancy is not happening???

you now know that i am in no way connected commercially or organizationally in any way with soaring. I am a simple pilot who flies often. thats it.

I also have the experience and ability to understand this mess. while we are at it.. NO I WILL NOT BE PHYSICALLY ABLE TO RUN FOR DIRECTOR OR TO ASSUME ANY ACTIVE ROLE.. I AM DYING

SCREW YOU GUYS!!!

5bg




"Jay" wrote in message ups.com...
LOL@Bob - That's what many of us have been saying to him right along.
It's not that some of what he says doesn't have merit - it's that his
unwillingness to either identify himself and/or actually get involved
in fixing things (other than writing complaining posts) is a major
detraction from any valid points that he might make.

Bob Kuykendall wrote:
I think that posting anonymously on that topic falls only a tad shy of
fulfilling the definition of "irony."

5-BG,

I caught some flak from certain SSA directors because early on in the
rec.aviation.soaring wars after SSA's first disclosure, I began
referring to you as "one of the few guys there who really gets it."
Later I thought you went too far on some of your conspiracy theories.
And your often confrontational and abrasive style rubbed even those who
shared some of your views the wrong way. But you clearly were one of
the early ones to understand what many of the real issues were in this
scandal.

At this point, however, I have to say: "you've made the sale; now stop
selling." The Board and ExComm agreed to allow us to set up an
independent group to monitor ExComm's (and the short-term Emergency
Business Plan Task Force's) activities. As announced, that group has
been set up (Tom Dixon, Misti Roland, and David Pixton) and they've
been attending (dialing into) ExComm meetings for some weeks. There are
still a few details of the actual charter to be resolved but I
understand ExComm and the Review Task Force (as it's now called) are
close. I say "I understand" because Richard Kellerman and I backed away
from active participation after determining we'd found three excellent
people for the RTF.

That's the nature of representative democracy. I don't want ExComm or
the EBPTF to keep us up to date on every little thing they say or do.
Nor should they. Having confidence that those two groups (which have
heavy overlap in membership) know what they're doing should (in a
perfect world) reassure me that they'll do the right thing. Knowing
there's a third party watching them every step of the way lets me sleep
at night in this imperfect world.

RTF was set up to ensure none of the inherent conflicts of interest
that exist (we've talked that one to death) push ExComm the wrong way.
Now that RTF is operating, I've stopped posting on this subject. We got
what we asked for and needed, although not before I damaged my personal
reputation with some folks on the Board, and probably in the membership
at large, by "going public" with my concerns. I suggest now that unless
you have new information, you accept partial credit for helping push
SSA in the right direction and focus your attention on what, from your
perspective, are undoubtedly far more serious issues.

If the Board, ExComm, or any other SSA group gives us reason to
question whether they're operating competently and in good faith, I'll
be among the first to ask for an explanation, disclosure, and/or
change. To date, however, the process appears to be working. It took us
a while to get where we are but I believe we're on the right track now.

Chip Bearden