CFI without commercial?

("Dudley Henriques" wrote)
snip
Let me put it this way. You can be technically right. Montblank can be
technically right. But I will avoid both of you in any post I make on
Usenet because you are playing games with my name under a pedantic litany
of technicality that involves something I believe the average reader would
miss when reading something attributed to me that I did not say.
It's THAT simple!
In my opinion, if indents are to be used to separate two individuals in a
quoted text involving both individuals, BOTH people should be named in the
"said" heading; not one. This being done, the indents then serve their
useful purpose as a separator. Naming only one individual, then using a
double indent that can easily be missed is both misleading and
disingenuous.


Hmm.

First things first. S.P.M. posted a lengthy explanation (for him) and you
shot back with a two word answer - that for me was worth a chuckle.

WRT the above passage snip:
I think there is style and then there's general use (SOP). I'm sorry Dudley
ole'buddy, but I think you're not right in this case. I responded to you.
You were responding to someone else.

No need to include all previous information from the thread, just enough to
move it along. S.P.M's name wasn't needed for that end - plain and simple.

....means two posts ago.
......means your post.

I think you're grabbing at being wronged here. You've got the 'No One Treats
DH That Way" machinery in place and by gum you're bound and determined to
pull me into it.

This is how I trim my post. This is how I've been trimming my posts.
However...In the future, I will take special care to attribute other
people's quotes when your name is involved.

Now a postscript, as it were.
At first glance I didn't think you had a horse in this race because you
seldom trim your posts. Then I realized that, in a pedantic technicality
kind of way, your bases are covered. g


Montblack

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

Technically, he's being being paid to teach. He only needs a class 3
medical.


But in reality he's flying for hire.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

Technically, he's being being paid to teach. He only needs a class 3
medical.


But in reality he's flying for hire.


No he's teaching for hire which is acceptted as OK by the FAA to do with a
3rd class medical.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote in message
news:_R2Wd.19007$Im.17259@okepread01...

No he's teaching for hire which is acceptted as OK by the FAA to do with a
3rd class medical.

So flight instructors don't fly?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote in message
news:_R2Wd.19007$Im.17259@okepread01...

No he's teaching for hire which is acceptted as OK by the FAA to do with a
3rd class medical.

So flight instructors don't fly?

No, the flying is incidental to the job, which is teaching. As a PPSEL employed
at one time as a systems engineer, I could draw my salary while flying to a
meeting I had to attend. My employer could even pay the entire cost of the
flight. The CFI is doing exactly the same thing.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
...

No, the flying is incidental to the job, which is teaching.


What is it that they're teaching?



As a PPSEL employed
at one time as a systems engineer, I could draw my salary while flying to
a
meeting I had to attend. My employer could even pay the entire cost of the
flight. The CFI is doing exactly the same thing.


Doesn't seem to be exactly the same thing to me. You weren't performing
your job while flying, but a flight instructor certainly is.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"George Patterson" wrote in message
...

No, the flying is incidental to the job, which is teaching.


What is it that they're teaching?


How to throw yourself at the ground and miss!


--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

That right. An in fact, if the pilot is already rated and qualified as
PIC (perhaps getting a BFR) then the CFI doesn't need *any* medical at
all.

-Robert

Thank you George.

I'll probably regret it, but here's John Lynch's opinion includeing the
questions clarification in the Part 61 Pramble.

QUESTION: Does a CFI even need a medical certificate to give flight
training?



ANSWER: Ref. § 61.23; Depends on the situation. The medical requirements
for a CFI are found in § 61.23.



Reference § 61.3(c)(2)(iv) and § 61.23(b)(5); No, when exercising the
privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is NOT acting as
pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember.



Reference § 61.3(c)(1) and § 61.23(a)(3)(iv) Yes, at least a current 3rd
class medical certificate when giving instruction to a student pilot
(instructor must be PIC), to anyone while that person is using a view
limiting device (instructor is the safety pilot), or to a pilot that is not
rated in the aircraft (e.g., while preparing a pilot for multiengine,
sea-plane, type rating, etc., the instructor must be the PIC).



QUESTION: Do the rules permit a flight instructor to even receive
compensation for instruction when that flight instructor holds only a third
class medical, or maybe does not even hold a current medical certificate at
all?



ANSWER: § 61.23(b)(5); Yes, in accordance with § 61.23(b)(5), a flight
instructor who does not hold a medical certificate may give flight and
ground training and be compensated for it. In the preamble of the parts 61
and 141 final rule that was published in the Federal Register on April 4,
1997 (62 FR 16220-16367) when the FAA revised the entire Part 61, the FAA
stated the following in the Federal Register on page 16242 in response to
whether a medical certificate is required for a flight instructor to give
ground and flight training:



" With respect to the holding of medical certificates by a flight
instructor, the FAA has determined that the compensation a certificated
flight instructor receives for flight instruction is not compensation for
piloting the aircraft, but rather is compensation for the instruction. A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and is receiving compensation for his or her
flight instruction is only exercising the privileges of a private pilot. A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight
instruction is not carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire,
nor is he or she, for compensation or hire, acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft. . . . In this same regard, the FAA has determined that a
certificated flight instructor on board an aircraft for the purpose of
providing flight instruction, who does not act as pilot in command or
function as a required flight crewmember, is not performing or exercising
pilot privileges that would require him or her to possess a valid medical
certificate under the FARs."





QUESTION: Isn't it true that if a flight instructor is required to act as
PIC and is compensated, that a 2nd class medical would be required? If
the argument is that the flight instructor is not being compensated as a
pilot, but as an instructor why must they act as PIC? There is no
allowance for a pilot receiving compensation for pilot services to not have
at least a current 2nd class medical. The regulation does not talk about
instructors receiving compensation, so the 2nd class medical requirement
must apply them, also.



ANSWER: An instructor is not necessarily required to act as PIC to give
instruction, but is allowed to log instruction time as PIC per §
61.51(e)(3). The only situations in which an instructor is required to ACT
as PIC are during training of a student pilot or giving instrument
instruction to a non-instrument rated person while operating under
instrument flight rules (on an activated instrument flight plan) regardless
of whether it is instrument meteorological or visual meteorological
conditions (IMC or VMC).



An instructor is not required to act as PIC while giving simulated
instrument instruction to a person using a view limiting device, but the
instructor may be acting as safety pilot during this instruction. In
accordance with § 61.23(3)(iv) the instructor must hold a valid third class
medical to act as PIC or to be the safety pilot. This is because of
required crewmember status, not due to instruction duties.



Note that no medical is required per § 61.23(b)(5) when exercising the
privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as
PIC or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember.



True, the regulation is silent to the issue of compensation for instruction.
The government does not set rates or prevent free instruction. But, as you
say, a pilot receiving compensation for pilot services (Commercial or above)
does have to possess at least a current 2nd class medical. But, note the
emphasis on "pilot services." Instruction is not a pilot service



QUESTION: If a second class medical is not necessary for an instructor to
receive compensation, then it appears that a private pilot can be a flight
instructor, right? For Example a pilot could surrender their commercial
for a private and be a compensated flight instructor working a Part 61 or
141 school. It is possible. Do you have any guidance that I can reference
that allows flight instructors to act without a commercial certificate?



ANSWER: Ref. § 61.183(c); No. That is not possible. To be eligible for a
flight instructor certificate or rating, § 61.183(c) requires a person to
hold a commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate
with the appropriate category and class rating. Surrender of the commercial
or ATP certificate to only hold a private certificate would effectively
include the surrender of the instructor certification. There is no
provision for a person to obtain or hold a flight instructor certificate
without a commercial or ATP certificate. But "holding" a commercial or ATP
certificate does not demand a valid medical. Only the performance of given
privileges require a specific class medical per § 61.23(a) (1), (2), or
(3).



QUESTION: Is it permissible to act as CFI with only a 3rd class Medical if
there is no compensation? ... Is it permissible to act as CFII in IMC with
only a 3rd class Medical if there is no compensation?



ANSWER: Ref. § 61.193 for flight instructor privileges; and § 61.195 for
limitations; Yes, to both questions, provided for the flight in IMC you're
current to act as pilot-in-command as required by § 61.57. In fact, you can
receive compensation. Your commercial certificate and instrument rating
provide the flight privileges as a crewmember (PIC while operating on the
IFR flight plan) as well as eligibility to obtain and continue to hold the
instructor certificate, but the third class medical is adequate for the
flight.

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...

" With respect to the holding of medical certificates by a flight
instructor, the FAA has determined that the compensation a certificated
flight instructor receives for flight instruction is not compensation for
piloting the aircraft, but rather is compensation for the instruction. A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and is receiving compensation for his or her
flight instruction is only exercising the privileges of a private pilot.
A
certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a
required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her
flight
instruction is not carrying passengers or property for compensation or
hire,
nor is he or she, for compensation or hire, acting as pilot in command of
an
aircraft. . . . In this same regard, the FAA has determined that a
certificated flight instructor on board an aircraft for the purpose of
providing flight instruction, who does not act as pilot in command or
function as a required flight crewmember, is not performing or exercising
pilot privileges that would require him or her to possess a valid medical
certificate under the FARs."


Is this the same FAA that deemed "free" flight time to be compensation
itself if it's used to gain another certificate?



ANSWER: An instructor is not necessarily required to act as PIC to give
instruction, but is allowed to log instruction time as PIC per §
61.51(e)(3). The only situations in which an instructor is required to
ACT
as PIC are during training of a student pilot or giving instrument
instruction to a non-instrument rated person while operating under
instrument flight rules (on an activated instrument flight plan)
regardless
of whether it is instrument meteorological or visual meteorological
conditions (IMC or VMC).


How can an instructor log flight time if he isn't flying?