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NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 31st 15, 12:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Posts: 310
Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

The UK ATC authority, NATS, has implemented a trial with AOPA UK to test a low cost ADS-B out capability. Basically, they are allowing non-certified GPS to interface with the Mode S 1090ES which gives ADS-B out.

Some people have (illegally) tested this with their Trig and other transponders in the U.S and other places:

This is as much as I know...

http://www.nats.aero/news/nats-enabl...-ga-community/

Hope this pans out... and FAA is listening.

Walt Rogers WX

  #2  
Old January 31st 15, 01:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 6:31:04 PM UTC-5, WaltWX wrote:
The UK ATC authority, NATS, has implemented a trial with AOPA UK to test a low cost ADS-B out capability. Basically, they are allowing non-certified GPS to interface with the Mode S 1090ES which gives ADS-B out.

Some people have (illegally) tested this with their Trig and other transponders in the U.S and other places:

This is as much as I know...

http://www.nats.aero/news/nats-enabl...-ga-community/

Hope this pans out... and FAA is listening.

Walt Rogers WX


Finally someone with brains made a decision that can benefit GA. I don't understand why we would not do this in US say below 10,000 and outside class C or B. Makes sense, but it is unlikely our bureaucrats will ever take notice. They are busy writing more rules. They are busy preventing rather than enabling.
  #3  
Old January 31st 15, 02:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 115
Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS):

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...5?OpenDocument

Marc
  #4  
Old January 31st 15, 03:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 3:31:04 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
The UK ATC authority, NATS, has implemented a trial with AOPA UK to test a low cost ADS-B out capability. Basically, they are allowing non-certified GPS to interface with the Mode S 1090ES which gives ADS-B out.

Some people have (illegally) tested this with their Trig and other transponders in the U.S and other places:

This is as much as I know...

http://www.nats.aero/news/nats-enabl...-ga-community/

Hope this pans out... and FAA is listening.

Walt Rogers WX


I am not aware of anybody, at least in the soaring community, *illegally* testing ADS-B Out. There are very small numbers of folks with experimental gliders who have configured ADS-B Out with non TSO GPS sources, and they have every "legal" right to do so as long as they correctly configure some of the GPS data fields. And those "non-complaint" ADS-B outputs won't likely now, and certainly won't in future, let those aircraft receive the usual slew of ADS-B services like ADS-R and TIS-B, but geeky glider pilots may want to do this, for exampel to provide longer-range tracking with PowerFLARM 1090ES receivers or tracking with ground based ADS-B receivers.


  #5  
Old January 31st 15, 03:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 5:47:58 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS):

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...5?OpenDocument

Marc


Marc beat me to the same post.

Now we will need to see if any manufactures will actually be able to justify doing the work needed to ship a TSO-C199 system. The negative view of this yet more ADS-B fragmentation for a small USA market. But the GPS direction in TSO-C199 is a great improvement... it is an opportunity for a manufacture to do qualifications needed to ship a TSO-C199 based system that could use a much simpler GPS that requiring a full TSO IFR GPS source as currently required. But that system would then still *not* meet the 2020 carriage mandate requirement for ADS-B Out (which gliders are exempt from anyhow) -- so it does not help GA in the USA in any way--although if stuff worked really well there it might help put pressure on changing other requirements.

TSO-C199 devices are a reduced feature Mode-S (and optionally 1090ES Out) based traffic saftey beacon system hopefully suitable for gliders, balloons and maybe UAVs inter-operating with GA and above aircraft equipped with PCAS/TCAD/TCAS/ADS-B In. And to be clear TSO-C199 is not and never will be an invitation for aircraft owners to connect COTS (common off the shelf) GPS systems to an ADS-B Out transmitter. It is really important that TSO-C199 is based on transponder technology, that makes any TSO-C199 based system, if it is developed, compatible with TCAS, ... remember the ASG-29 and (TCAS equipped) Hawker 800 midair out of Minden a few years ago, TSO-C199 is a direct response from the FAA to the NTSB findings in that accident.


  #6  
Old January 31st 15, 04:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Posts: 167
Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

In Europe, Garrecht sells an ADS-B receiver that can also provide Classic
Flarm GPS data to a Mode S transponder for 680 Euros.

http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/TRX...eceiver,i4.htm

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

The Europeans are waaaaay ahead on this.

If you peruse the Trig TT-2x Transponder Installation manual, you will
find configuration parameters for stuff such as wingspan, fuselage length,
location on airframe etc.

It's all great for ensuring wingtips don't snag some other airframe on
adjacent taxiways and aprons at major airports. 3m accuracy or better gets
critical in this case.

Once airborne 50m accuracy from the little guys would be just fine for the
heavy stuff that doesn't want to come within half a mile of any of us.

It's a real surprise to see the FAA's head firmly stuck in the sand while
the Europeans are producing solutions that will work for GA.

  #7  
Old January 31st 15, 05:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 8:00:10 PM UTC-8, George Haeh wrote:
In Europe, Garrecht sells an ADS-B receiver that can also provide Classic
Flarm GPS data to a Mode S transponder for 680 Euros.

http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/TRX...eceiver,i4.htm

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

The Europeans are waaaaay ahead on this.

If you peruse the Trig TT-2x Transponder Installation manual, you will
find configuration parameters for stuff such as wingspan, fuselage length,
location on airframe etc.

It's all great for ensuring wingtips don't snag some other airframe on
adjacent taxiways and aprons at major airports. 3m accuracy or better gets
critical in this case.

Once airborne 50m accuracy from the little guys would be just fine for the
heavy stuff that doesn't want to come within half a mile of any of us.

It's a real surprise to see the FAA's head firmly stuck in the sand while
the Europeans are producing solutions that will work for GA.


I think I've got pretty good grasp on the technology here and I'm having trouble following what you are talking about.

The exact same capability as in the TRX 1090 is already included in the PowerFLARM (with 1090ES receiver).

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.


This sentence makes no technical sense, maybe you mistyped something. Filtering out non-GPS data from the PowerFLARM? For what? If all you want is a GPS output as good as PowerFLARM or simmilar devices you can do that for a pretty low component cost. Getting that COTS GPS signal is not the issue, the issue is whether you can use that signal to transmit a ADS-B signal. You cannot do so in the USA in a certified aircraft. And any aircraft you did it in would not meet the 2020 ADS-B Out carriage mandate.

Europe is ahead of the USA? I'd rather look at it as so far Europe has not done some of the particularly stupid things the FAA has done like making ADS-B dual-link, but in other ways Europe is further behind the USA, e.g. there is no European mandate for ADS-B adoption in light/GA aircraft and I hope when it eventually happens it is a lot more sensible than the roll out in the USA.

I'm not sure where 50m accuracy number comes from, but the FAA would tell you their concerns about positional accuracy of a non TSO GPS has worse case concerns greater than this. Its a much more complex discussion, but yes there is a place in this space for a non TSO/IFR GPS receiver, and that is directly acknowledged by TSO-C199, so I'd say the FAA's head is not entirely stuck in the ground, they've looked at this exactly, worked with vendors experienced with COTS GPS technology and this new TSO is the result.

All this ADS-B stuff is largely futureware, not something most pilots should get over-excited about, if you fly gliders in the USA and are worried about fast jets and airliners (and GA aircraft) install a transponder, worried about gliders install a PowerFLARM.
  #8  
Old January 31st 15, 02:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann[_2_]
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Posts: 177
Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 11:27:36 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 8:00:10 PM UTC-8, George Haeh wrote:
In Europe, Garrecht sells an ADS-B receiver that can also provide Classic
Flarm GPS data to a Mode S transponder for 680 Euros.

http://www.butterfly-store.de/en/TRX...eceiver,i4.htm

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.

The Europeans are waaaaay ahead on this.

If you peruse the Trig TT-2x Transponder Installation manual, you will
find configuration parameters for stuff such as wingspan, fuselage length,
location on airframe etc.

It's all great for ensuring wingtips don't snag some other airframe on
adjacent taxiways and aprons at major airports. 3m accuracy or better gets
critical in this case.

Once airborne 50m accuracy from the little guys would be just fine for the
heavy stuff that doesn't want to come within half a mile of any of us.

It's a real surprise to see the FAA's head firmly stuck in the sand while
the Europeans are producing solutions that will work for GA.


I think I've got pretty good grasp on the technology here and I'm having trouble following what you are talking about.

The exact same capability as in the TRX 1090 is already included in the PowerFLARM (with 1090ES receiver).

PowerFlarm already receives ADS-B and Mode C/S; so all that's needed is
filtering out the non-GPS data from the PF or other GPS feeds such as
advanced varios: Air Glide, CNV, LX.


This sentence makes no technical sense, maybe you mistyped something. Filtering out non-GPS data from the PowerFLARM? For what? If all you want is a GPS output as good as PowerFLARM or simmilar devices you can do that for a pretty low component cost. Getting that COTS GPS signal is not the issue, the issue is whether you can use that signal to transmit a ADS-B signal. You cannot do so in the USA in a certified aircraft. And any aircraft you did it in would not meet the 2020 ADS-B Out carriage mandate.

Europe is ahead of the USA? I'd rather look at it as so far Europe has not done some of the particularly stupid things the FAA has done like making ADS-B dual-link, but in other ways Europe is further behind the USA, e.g. there is no European mandate for ADS-B adoption in light/GA aircraft and I hope when it eventually happens it is a lot more sensible than the roll out in the USA.

I'm not sure where 50m accuracy number comes from, but the FAA would tell you their concerns about positional accuracy of a non TSO GPS has worse case concerns greater than this. Its a much more complex discussion, but yes there is a place in this space for a non TSO/IFR GPS receiver, and that is directly acknowledged by TSO-C199, so I'd say the FAA's head is not entirely stuck in the ground, they've looked at this exactly, worked with vendors experienced with COTS GPS technology and this new TSO is the result.

All this ADS-B stuff is largely futureware, not something most pilots should get over-excited about, if you fly gliders in the USA and are worried about fast jets and airliners (and GA aircraft) install a transponder, worried about gliders install a PowerFLARM.


ADS-B is NOT futureware. It exists today and is fully functional. Virtually all the ground stations are up and running. ADS-B IN solutions are widely available at very reasonable price points. The only problem is the lack of low cost 2020 certified ADS-B OUT solutions.

Telling glider pilots to ignore this technology is stupid. This is going to be THE collision avoidance technology in the US. Anyone buying equipment today needs to keep an eye on this, so their short term investments fit into the ADS-B environment on a long term basis.
  #9  
Old January 31st 15, 04:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Posts: 608
Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 5:58:39 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:

This is going to be THE collision avoidance technology in the US.


Except for gliders, where it does't address the primary collision scenarios today and won't in the future.

ADS-B is architected to complement the ATC 5 mile/1000' separation philosophy. It's not good at close-in, dynamic collision warning the way PowerFlarm is. It doesn't doesn't do position prediction so it can't handle dropped packets the way PowerFlarm can (important close-in). In short it's not at all good for the glider-glider scenario and isn't adaptable to that scenario in the future.

Unless you have a transponder, carrying ADS-B won't light up TCAS carried on all large jets and most corporate jets and turboprops. TCAS will continue to be the primary (and perhaps only) collision warning system on these aircraft even after the 2020 carriage mandate. ADS-B fits in as traffic advisory and leaves TCAS to do collision avoidance.

If you want to stay clear of gliders get a PowerFlarm - that's the ONLY thing you can do today. IF the FAA pursues changes to allow lower cost GPS sources then if you are carrying a suitable Mode-S transponder (like the Trig TT22) you MIGHT be able to upgrade to an affordable full ADS-B 1090 ES In/Out system that would allow you to see/be seen by other ADS-B carrying traffic AND will provide TCAS collision warnings to all TCAS-equipped aircraft.

Stay away from all that ADS-B UAT stuff (unless you want to get a cheap UAT In device to get free aviation weather). Virtually no one is carrying ADS-B UAT Out today and there's no point in carrying a transponder AND an ADS-B UAT Out device when you can just add GPS to your Mode S transponder - which you need anyway for TCAS.

Cheap GPS sources would really finish out the collision avoidance technology picture for glider pilots by allowing glider pilots to install Mode S and PowerFlarm (Core, rather than Core Pure) today and upgrade to add ADS-B 1090 ES Out in the future.

9B
  #10  
Old January 31st 15, 05:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default NATS to enable ADS-B transponder functionality for GA

Good points, Andrzej. I would only ask that the altitude be raised to
18,000' (minus 1, of course). Ten thousand feet can get a bit nerve
wracking in the high western desert.


On 1/30/2015 5:18 PM, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 6:31:04 PM UTC-5, WaltWX wrote:
The UK ATC authority, NATS, has implemented a trial with AOPA UK to test a low cost ADS-B out capability. Basically, they are allowing non-certified GPS to interface with the Mode S 1090ES which gives ADS-B out.

Some people have (illegally) tested this with their Trig and other transponders in the U.S and other places:

This is as much as I know...

http://www.nats.aero/news/nats-enabl...-ga-community/

Hope this pans out... and FAA is listening.

Walt Rogers WX

Finally someone with brains made a decision that can benefit GA. I don't understand why we would not do this in US say below 10,000 and outside class C or B. Makes sense, but it is unlikely our bureaucrats will ever take notice. They are busy writing more rules. They are busy preventing rather than enabling.


--
Dan Marotta

 




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