FLARM

At 16:30 05 March 2006, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
This reply is typical of Don, but is not representative
of UK thinking.
At a nominal 55mA current drain, this should not significantly
affect
Battery life. If Don had ever seen a FLARM display
he might not utter
such ill-informed opinions about cluttering the cockpit.

True, there are, AFAIK, no FLARM installations in UK,


Sorry Tim, I think that what I said is truly representative
of the thinking of UK glider pilots. I have yet to
speak to any who have a burning desire to install FLARM,
or indeed transponders.
I bet you a new FLARM unit that I could find more pilots
who don't want FLARM or who don't care than you can
find pilots that desire it.

I do not have room on my panel for any additional display

The reasons for my view may not be representative of
UK thinking, but I think you would have to admit that
there is general apathy surrounding FLARM in the UK.

Who is pushing for this anyway, could it be the manufacturers/
suppliers of said items perchance? Will there be an
approved list with the most economical excluded?

Don Johnstone wrote:

Who is pushing for this anyway, could it be the manufacturers/
suppliers of said items perchance?

This I can answer. In Switzerland we had a couple of glider midairs over
the last years, some of them with fatal results. Triggered by this
experience, some glider pilots who happened to be electronics students
gathered and developed FLARM. The Swiss FOCA was very cooperative, and
many Swiss glider clubs ordered (and payed) FLARM units before it was
even working, which made the development possible. So, all in all, it
was a non-profit project initiated by some students and subsidized by
Swiss glider clubs. No ugly big money hungry company behind it.

I don't know whether it's become a profit company now, but I doubt they
make much money.

Stefan

I am a Nimbus 2C pilot from the same club as Robert H. who started this
thread.

It is great to see so much discussion about what is a serious issue, knowing
the risks of midair's.

LOOK OUT is still KING!

The units I have used at our club are small, don't seem to compromise
battery life, are easy to use and great to have as an aid.

I believe after thirty five plus years as a glider pilot, I kept good
lookout.

The Flarm finds all the gliders fitted with Flarm and quite a few I
certainly did not see. This is in the wide open skies of Australia, all be
it a fairly big club and private fleet at the DDSC club www.ddsc.org.au..

I have to admit our Nimbus is one of the very few not fitted at present at
the club, but this has more to do with partners and finance at present.

Don't know about the politics, litigation etc, but it certainly is one of
the best safety features after good training I have seen.

I am glad the origens of FLARM have come up because
it answers some of my questions. I have flown in the
southern Alps and their environment for flight is unlike
any I know of in the USA or Australia. Flying in the
southern Alps many days consists of HUNDREDS of gliders
flying below peak height in all directions throughout
a mountain range that has valleys and passes in all
directions. Flying out of St Auban last year we were
using wrecked gliders as landmarks for navigation.
Collision avoidance is a very high energy activity
in that airspace. Power traffic is virtually non-existant
in that airspace. The power people just fly high above
all the mountains and valleys.

Here in the USA our most common partners in the airspace
are power planes. Power planes have transponders.
I fly out of Minden, NV and for years had fairly regular
close encounters with power planes. Commercial planes
coming in and out of Reno would turn right at you,
your flight path goes accross standard flight paths
in and out of Reno. Military traffic was especially
scary with fighters and heavies just dropping out of
the cloud deck right on top of me or directly in my
flight path. Then I installed a transponder and my
experiences are very different. I monitor the air
traffic people while flying and am very impressed how
well they see me and warn power traffic of my presence.
Commercial planes know where I am and no longer turn
into me. If our paths will cross the power planes
alter their altitude.

As for people being worried about battery problems,
that is just whining. I fly with a radio, transponder,
encoder, Cambridge, and iPAQ using a 12 amp hour battery.
I have never had a problem flying up to six hours.
I take that back. I had a problem for a couple weeks
and it turned out to be a bad battery charger.

For the USA I really believe that installing a transponder
is the responsible thing to do for all air traffic.
Wings and Wheels sells a unit that sounds a lot like
the FLARM but recognizes transponders. It makes much
more sense to me to go with the technology that has
the largest installed base, equipment availability
and support.


At 12:48 06 March 2006, Bert Willing wrote:
Either you don't know what you are talking about (ever
seen the external
Flarm display?), or your panel is crap.

'Don Johnstone' wrote in message
...
I do not have room on my panel for any additional
display

I think Tim in his reply to my post highlighted the
biggest failing in FLARM, lack of interest by the majority.
Having a FLARM in your glider is totally useless unless
eveyone else has one in theirs, and the only way to
achieve that is by compulsion.
Anyone who thinks that the majority of pilots will
fit one voluntarily is deluding themselves.
Right now in most of the world FLARM is just a useless
expensive piece of electronics and unless fitting it
becomes compulsory it will go the same way as Betamax
video tapes.

In answer to Bert my panel is full of instruments which
are of some use to me.






At 13:42 06 March 2006, Guy Acheson wrote:
I am glad the origens of FLARM have come up because
it answers some of my questions. I have flown in the
southern Alps and their environment for flight is unlike
any I know of in the USA or Australia. Flying in the
southern Alps many days consists of HUNDREDS of gliders
flying below peak height in all directions throughout
a mountain range that has valleys and passes in all
directions. Flying out of St Auban last year we were
using wrecked gliders as landmarks for navigation.
Collision avoidance is a very high energy activity
in that airspace. Power traffic is virtually non-existant
in that airspace. The power people just fly high above
all the mountains and valleys.

Here in the USA our most common partners in the airspace
are power planes. Power planes have transponders.
I fly out of Minden, NV and for years had fairly regular
close encounters with power planes. Commercial planes
coming in and out of Reno would turn right at you,
your flight path goes accross standard flight paths
in and out of Reno. Military traffic was especially
scary with fighters and heavies just dropping out of
the cloud deck right on top of me or directly in my
flight path. Then I installed a transponder and my
experiences are very different. I monitor the air
traffic people while flying and am very impressed how
well they see me and warn power traffic of my presence.
Commercial planes know where I am and no longer turn
into me. If our paths will cross the power planes
alter their altitude.

As for people being worried about battery problems,
that is just whining. I fly with a radio, transponder,
encoder, Cambridge, and iPAQ using a 12 amp hour battery.
I have never had a problem flying up to six hours.
I take that back. I had a problem for a couple weeks
and it turned out to be a bad battery charger.

For the USA I really believe that installing a transponder
is the responsible thing to do for all air traffic.
Wings and Wheels sells a unit that sounds a lot like
the FLARM but recognizes transponders. It makes much
more sense to me to go with the technology that has
the largest installed base, equipment availability
and support.


At 12:48 06 March 2006, Bert Willing wrote:
Either you don't know what you are talking about (ever
seen the external
Flarm display?), or your panel is crap.

'Don Johnstone' wrote in message
...
I do not have room on my panel for any additional
display

Reality check - 3000 units worldwide out of how many
gliders and light aircraft? Hardly something I would
call universal. Two european countries, half the antipodes,
and parts of the USA does not in my opinion equate
to most of the world either.
Fitting the unit is my glider right now would be stupid
and if the straw poll I have conducted over the past
couple of days is anything to go by will remain so.
I have yet to speak to a pilot who has any intention
of fitting an (relatively) expensive piece of kit
which may or may not be useful in the distant future.
Certainly according to Tim no-one in the UK has shown
an interest as yet.

If I thought for one moment that FLARM improved safety
I would be the first to support it. At best right now
it is ineffective at worst it distracts attention away
from a more practical way of solving the problem, an
irrelevance.

While there may be very few of the worlds problems
that cannot be solved with high explosive, problems
in gliding cannot all be solved by an electronic gizzmo.
Proper pilot training has to be the way to reach the
majority. Do you think that FLARM will ever be used
by the majority voluntarily? (How many Ka6's are there
in the world?)

At 23:30 06 March 2006, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Don Johnstone wrote:
I think Tim in his reply to my post highlighted the
biggest failing in FLARM, lack of interest by the
majority.
Having a FLARM in your glider is totally useless unless
eveyone else has one in theirs, and the only way to
achieve that is by compulsion.
Anyone who thinks that the majority of pilots will
fit one voluntarily is deluding themselves.
Right now in most of the world FLARM is just a useless
expensive piece of electronics and unless fitting
it
becomes compulsory it will go the same way as Betamax
video tapes.

FLARM: 3000 units already delivered without compulsion,
because the
benefits are obvious to the pilots flying in the high-traffic
glider
areas in Europe. It won't go the way of the Betamax,
unless someone
develops the VHS equivalent of FLARM.

In my opinion, compulsion will only be needed in areas
where FLARM has
little or no value. And, if FLARM continues to include
new features such
as an IGC approved flight recorder and club aircraft
monitoring, it
might not take much compulsion, either.

--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download 'A Guide to Self-launching
Sailplane
Operation'

You're expressing exactly the view of hundreds of pilots one or two years
ago in continental Europe, who are all now happily flying with Flarm and are
very convinced of the device.

"Don Johnstone" wrote in message
...
Reality check - 3000 units worldwide out of how many
gliders and light aircraft? Hardly something I would
call universal. Two european countries, half the antipodes,
and parts of the USA does not in my opinion equate
to most of the world either.
Fitting the unit is my glider right now would be stupid
and if the straw poll I have conducted over the past
couple of days is anything to go by will remain so.
I have yet to speak to a pilot who has any intention
of fitting an (relatively) expensive piece of kit
which may or may not be useful in the distant future.
Certainly according to Tim no-one in the UK has shown
an interest as yet.

If I thought for one moment that FLARM improved safety
I would be the first to support it. At best right now
it is ineffective at worst it distracts attention away
from a more practical way of solving the problem, an
irrelevance.

While there may be very few of the worlds problems
that cannot be solved with high explosive, problems
in gliding cannot all be solved by an electronic gizzmo.
Proper pilot training has to be the way to reach the
majority. Do you think that FLARM will ever be used
by the majority voluntarily? (How many Ka6's are there
in the world?)

At 23:30 06 March 2006, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Don Johnstone wrote:
I think Tim in his reply to my post highlighted the
biggest failing in FLARM, lack of interest by the
majority.
Having a FLARM in your glider is totally useless unless
eveyone else has one in theirs, and the only way to
achieve that is by compulsion.
Anyone who thinks that the majority of pilots will
fit one voluntarily is deluding themselves.
Right now in most of the world FLARM is just a useless
expensive piece of electronics and unless fitting
it
becomes compulsory it will go the same way as Betamax
video tapes.

FLARM: 3000 units already delivered without compulsion,
because the
benefits are obvious to the pilots flying in the high-traffic
glider
areas in Europe. It won't go the way of the Betamax,
unless someone
develops the VHS equivalent of FLARM.

In my opinion, compulsion will only be needed in areas
where FLARM has
little or no value. And, if FLARM continues to include
new features such
as an IGC approved flight recorder and club aircraft
monitoring, it
might not take much compulsion, either.

--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download 'A Guide to Self-launching
Sailplane
Operation'

"Guy Acheson" wrote in message
...
Here in the USA our most common partners in the airspace
are power planes. Power planes have transponders.
I fly out of Minden, NV and for years had fairly regular
close encounters with power planes. Commercial planes
coming in and out of Reno would turn right at you,
your flight path goes accross standard flight paths
in and out of Reno. Military traffic was especially
scary with fighters and heavies just dropping out of
the cloud deck right on top of me or directly in my
flight path. Then I installed a transponder and my
experiences are very different.

My experience, also flying out of Minden, NV, mirrors Guy's. Reno Approach
(ATC) even has a transponder code (0440) set aside for VFR glider use - - so
they can tell what type of traffic we are when they point us out as traffic
advisories to other aircraft. Besides the transponder, I also fly with a
TPAS (transponder passive alert system), the Proxalert R-5. This helps alert
me to the presence of transponder equipped aircraft even if they are not
talking to ATC.

In managing the inherent risks of flying, it's wise to do what you
reasonably can to be safe. At least for relatively busy areas like Minden, I
think it's almost criminal to *not* use a transponder. As to do so, puts all
those people in airliners more at risk of a collision with an "unmarked" and
hard to visually acquire glider.

bumper

In Austria there is a Flarm coverage of about 80%. Taking into
consideration the cross country pilots only, the coverage might be 90%+

regards

Christoph

Don Johnstone wrote:
Reality check - 3000 units worldwide out of how many
gliders and light aircraft?

It is not fitted world-wide: it is fitted where there is a serious
problem that it can mitigate.

Hardly something I would
call universal.

No one claimed it was universal. I claim 3000 units (and growing) in
areas of high glider density is a grand success story.

Two european countries,

Come on, Don! At least check out FLARM.com, where you will see it is
being sold in EIGHT European countries!

half the antipodes,
and parts of the USA

Nowhere is it in use in the USA. In fact, FLARM refuses to sell it to
the USA.

does not in my opinion equate
to most of the world either.

And we all agree with that.

Fitting the unit is my glider right now would be stupid

Yes! Don, FLARM is not about you and your personal situation. Try to
understand why it was initiated by glider pilots in Europe, and in three
or so years delivered 3000 units!

and if the straw poll I have conducted over the past
couple of days is anything to go by will remain so.
I have yet to speak to a pilot who has any intention
of fitting an (relatively) expensive piece of kit
which may or may not be useful in the distant future.
Certainly according to Tim no-one in the UK has shown
an interest as yet.

If I thought for one moment that FLARM improved safety
I would be the first to support it.

It does improve safety in Europe. If you flew in the Alps and other high
density areas, you would find yourself quite interested in
renting/borrowing one while you where there. I support the concept, and
I live in the USA, where they refuse to sell FLARM. You can support
FLARM without using one.

At best right now
it is ineffective at worst it distracts attention away
from a more practical way of solving the problem, an
irrelevance.

A strong opinion from someone who has not ever flown with a FLARM, and
especially not in Europe! Or, apparently, even read any of the history
of the device.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"