Imperial War Museum Duxford

I dont want to go off topic but i dont see this so called "new labour" as
labour, theyre every bit as much in the tory mould.
"Peter Twydell" wrote in message
...
In article , M. H.
Greaves writes
Yes i absolutely agree!
Labour gov't wanted the aircraft ind' to build aircraft that were already
established, but did not want the industry to "go breaching the realms of
science". At least thats what Jenkins says on the video, really labour
has
done irreversible damage to britians aircraft industry, we no longer make
them here on our own, they have to be in collaboration with another
nation,
look at the tornado for example.
All of the uk's people went to USA after the TSR 2 fiasco.
Thanks for the link
regards, mark.

"Alan Dicey" wrote in
message
...

A good TSR-2 potted history site can be found on Damien Burke's
"Thunder
and Lightnings" site:

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co...2/history.html

I think that TSR-2 was cancelled by an aircraft-industry-hating Labour
government, who really wanted to cancel Concorde, but discovered that
the penalty clauses were too punative. Though they repeatedly denied
it, I'm convinced that Jenkins and Healey were the prime movers. The
spite and malice attending the cancellation still make me angry (jigs
and tooling destroyed, documentation and even photographs burned). This
all points to the political nature of the cancellation. They might as
well have sown the Warton airfield with salt.




There were paeans of praise for Roy Jenkins when he died, but all I
could think of was "You were one of the *******s who killed the most
advanced aircraft of its day". As Mark says, Jenkins, Healey and all
couldn't understand why the industry had to build something new instead
of existing designs. The fundamental problem was that the government of
the time was made up of academics who mostly had no conception of the
real world of industry. What good is a degree in English Literature or
the Classics when you have to decide on the merits of a supersonic
bomber?

The present lot are just as bad - lawyers and socialist academics - the
only one who has ever worn a uniform is Fatty "Two Jags" Prescott, and
that was as a ship's steward in the Merchant Navy.

There appears to be a snobbish mindset at the heart of British society
that considers anything to do with engineering to be dirty and
undignified, and manufacturing to be vulgar. The City is interested only
in short-term profit, and doesn't seem capable of investing in the
creativity and skill of inventors and engineers in the UK.

\rant
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

In message , Peter Twydell
writes
There appears to be a snobbish mindset at the heart of British society
that considers anything to do with engineering to be dirty and
undignified, and manufacturing to be vulgar. The City is interested only
in short-term profit, and doesn't seem capable of investing in the
creativity and skill of inventors and engineers in the UK.

So, no change in the last two hundred years, then.

The founder of the UK General Electric Company wrote in his diaries
about the precautions he took to prevent his friends finding out he was
actually 'in trade' - instant blackball had he been found to be involved
in buying and selling, let alone of vulgar new-fangled 'electrical
goods'.

A century later, the City boys dumped everything that actually made
money so that ex-GEC - now "Marconi" with a twiddly new logo - could
concentrate on its core speciality of buying high and selling low.
Building stuff and selling it was passe, Marconi would ride to riches in
the New Economy by trading e-services in a network-enabled paradigm.

Not much changes.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:54:20 +0000, Alan Dicey
wrote:

Greg Hennessy wrote:
Considering the person who ultimately authorised it also happened to be
head of the board of trade when RR Nenes and Derwents were swapped for
russian timber freely available in the Sterling zone. One could ascribe
motives a lot more sinister than just hating the aircraft industry.


Nnnnnooooo, I don't think so - - - President of the Board of Trade
during the disgraceful affair of the Nenes and Derwents was the
memorably-monickered Sir Stifford Crapps (or was it Stafford Cripps?

Cripps was chancellor when the engines were shipped in 47. Stripping RAF
frontline squadrons of spares and replacements in the process.

IIRC Wilson was part of the 'trade' delegation led by Cripps which did the
'deal' in 1946. Considering Cripps disgraceful behaviour prior to June 41
and his attempts to destroy the war cabinet if the soviets werent given
enough largesse after that date, one can but wonder if we'll ever know the
true story.


It
is far too easy a target to ignore). Guilty of incredible naivety, he
was in thrall to Uncle Joe and believed he could do no wrong.

Not suprising considering they were the inheritors of the Webbs 'We saw no
ukrainian famine' mantle.


Anyway, Crapps retired in 1950, so can't be blamed for TSR-2 as well.
Who did you have in mind, Wilson?

Wislon was president of the board of trade when the nenes and derwents were
shipped.


greg





--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

Greg Hennessy wrote:

Cripps was chancellor when the engines were shipped in 47. Stripping RAF
frontline squadrons of spares and replacements in the process.

IIRC Wilson was part of the 'trade' delegation led by Cripps which did the
'deal' in 1946. Considering Cripps disgraceful behaviour prior to June 41
and his attempts to destroy the war cabinet if the soviets werent given
enough largesse after that date, one can but wonder if we'll ever know the
true story.
and

Wislon was president of the board of trade when the nenes and derwents were
shipped.

I have located a reference that is the best documentation I have on this
subject

Ref: Air Enthusiast, July/August 2001; "Turbojets for Stalin" by Tony
Buttler.

He says he used newly-released official papers to shed light on the
affair. To summarise the 5-page article:

The Soviet Union placed an order with Rolls for ten Nene and ten Derwent
engines in July 1946. Lord Hives (for R-R) wrote to Cripps (President
of the Board of Trade) asking for approval - "We hope that politics will
not prevent us from executing this order".

Cripps replied in the *negative* to Hives in August. However on
September 26th he is recorded as taking the matter to Attlee (the Prime
Minister) and urging that the export license be granted!

Attlee asked the Chiefs of Staff, who did not object, and then granted
the export license. The engines were not on the Secret list, which
seems to have been important. The delivery was begun in January 1947 at
a rate of four Derwent and three Nene per month, so completed in April.

Cripps biographical details follow: -

"Sir (Richard) Stafford Cripps, PC, KC
[leader of the House of Commons and Lord Privy Seal 1942; undertook
unsuccessful mission to India 1942; President of the Board of Trade from
July 1945 - Sept. 1947; member of the cabinet mission to India 1946;
Minister for Economic Affairs Sept.-Nov.1947;Chancellor of the Exchequer
Nov. 1947-50.]"

He was President of the Board of Trade for the whole of the affair,
Wilson not taking over until September 1947. Along with Attlee, then,
most of the blame falls on him.

The Soviets asked for more engines, Meteor IV's and Vampires in 1947.
Attlee said that since the aircraft were off the secret list and had
been already sold to other countries, he could not prevent the sale but
encouraged procrastination and delay. The Americans, who had not been
notified, were not best pleased: Air Marshal Goddard (RAF delgation
Washington) delivered this comment : -
"We are being regarded as a second Sweden. People here are not aware of
our Commonwealth economic and production policy for defence but cannot
believe we shall give in to adversity and become nondescript like France"

!!

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:09:18 +0000, Alan Dicey
wrote:


Cripps replied in the *negative* to Hives in August. However on
September 26th he is recorded as taking the matter to Attlee (the Prime
Minister) and urging that the export license be granted!


That doesnt surprise me.

Attlee asked the Chiefs of Staff, who did not object, and then granted
the export license.

One wonders WTF the chiefs of staff were smoking.

The Soviets asked for more engines, Meteor IV's and Vampires in 1947.

Asking for meteors and vampires seem strange, one wonders why.

Attlee said that since the aircraft were off the secret list and had
been already sold to other countries, he could not prevent the sale but
encouraged procrastination and delay.

It was a bit late at that stage, the soviets already had the engines to
reverse engineer.

The Americans, who had not been
notified, were not best pleased:

Who can blame them.


greg


--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

Greg Hennessy wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:09:18 +0000, Alan Dicey
wrote:



Cripps replied in the *negative* to Hives in August. However on
September 26th he is recorded as taking the matter to Attlee (the Prime
Minister) and urging that the export license be granted!



That doesnt surprise me.


Attlee asked the Chiefs of Staff, who did not object, and then granted
the export license.


One wonders WTF the chiefs of staff were smoking.


The Soviets asked for more engines, Meteor IV's and Vampires in 1947.


Asking for meteors and vampires seem strange, one wonders why.


Attlee said that since the aircraft were off the secret list and had
been already sold to other countries, he could not prevent the sale but
encouraged procrastination and delay.


It was a bit late at that stage, the soviets already had the engines to
reverse engineer.


The Americans, who had not been
notified, were not best pleased:


Who can blame them.


greg


http://www.johnmullen.org.uk/aerospce/pics/tsr22.htm