Wm Buckley on John Kerry

This url from National Review. A must read. Delivered by Wm Buckley
to the graduating class USMA 1971 about Kerry's activities in the
anti-Vietnam movement.

http://www.nationalreview.com/flashb...0402040837.asp


Big John

Even if Buckley's speech weren't nonsensical, why would it be a "must read"
for an aviation newsgroup?

If you insist on using this group as a presidential campaign platform, don't
expect the other side to refrain from doing the same.

--Gary

"Big John" wrote in message
...


This url from National Review. A must read. Delivered by Wm Buckley
to the graduating class USMA 1971 about Kerry's activities in the
anti-Vietnam movement.

http://www.nationalreview.com/flashb...0402040837.asp


Big John

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:12:28 GMT, "Gary Drescher"
wrote in Message-Id:
MsxUb.225242$I06.2452447@attbi_s01:

If you insist on using this group as a presidential campaign platform, don't
expect the other side to refrain from doing the same.


Here's a little something (on-topic) I found in rec.aviation.military
recently:

Bush's Top 10 Lies, Exaggerations And 'Obsfucations'
About His Military Service
Nancy Skinner

Governor Bush has made credibility the central issue of this
campaign, and makes almost daily references to the Vice
President's alleged exaggerations and lack of truthfulness. But
on a subject that could not be more important for his presidential
candidacy, his own military service, the record shows that George
W. Bush has exaggerated and even lied about his service. Governor
Bush took a solemn oath during wartime to serve his country in the
Texas Air National Guard. He did not honor that oath He walked
away. And in this presidential campaign, he has made several
misrepresentations about his service. A number of newspaper
reports and even more accounts on Internet websites, based on
Freedom Of Information Act requests of Bush's official military
record, have concluded that he completely missed at least one year
of service, and may not have shown up in person for his last year.
While those reports continue to be debated, the following
statements by Bush and his aides are directly contradicted by the
current record.

#1 Bush never showed up in Alabama Air National Guard when directly
ordered to do so, after requesting a transfer to work in Alabama.

I was there on a temporary assignment and fulfilled my weekends at
one period of time Bush said during a campaign stop in Tuscaloosa,
AL, referring to his claim that he served in the Alabama National
Guard. [Dallas Morning News, 6/26/00]

"He specifically recalls pulling duty in Alabama," spokesman Dan
Bartlett said of Bush. "He did his drills." Bartlett said the
Republican governor showed up "several" times while in Alabama,
where he transferred from his Houston Guard unit in 1972 to work
for the unsuccessful Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blount,
a friend of Bush's father. [Washington Post 6/25/00]

The Truth

Bush left Houston May 15, 1972 and went to work on a political
campaign in Alabama. His first request for a transfer on May 24
was denied because the unit was inactive. His second request on
September 5 to a different unit was granted. He was issued a
direct order to report on specific days to the base, which he
completely ignored. The order was issued on September 15 to
report to then-Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed at Dannelly
Air Force base in Montgomery, AL, on the dates of 7-8 October
0730-1600, and 4-5 November 0730-1600 His orders, dated Sept.
15, 1972, said: "Lieutenant Bush should report to Lt. Col. William
Turnipseed, DCO, to perform equivalent training." [Boston Globe
5/23/00] http://www.cis.net/~coldfeet/doc11.gif

His Commanding Officer, William Turnipseed, says he did not show
up.

"To my knowledge, he never showed up," Turnipseed said last month.
[Boston Globe 5/23/00] In interviews last week, Turnipseed and his
administrative officer at the time, Kenneth K. Lott, said they had
no memory of Bush ever reporting. ''Had he reported in, I would
have had some recall, and I do not,'' Turnipseed said. ''I had
been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a
first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered.'' Turnipseed
also reports that the then-squadron operations officer of the
Alabama Guard also has no recollection of having seen Bush.(The
New Republic 10/16/2000)

Furthermore, a spokesman for the Alabama National Guard estimates
there were 600 to 700 members in the unit Bush was supposed to have
served with in 1972. But none of these men has ever come forward to
say he remembers Bush, and Bush has not named a single one of
them.(The New Republic 10/16/2000)

There is no official National Guard record for George W. Bush's
service in Alabama.

His official discharge records do not include any service after
May 15 of 1972. Indeed, Bush's discharge papers list his service
and duty station for each of his first four years in the Air
Guard. But there is no record of training listed after May 1972,
and no mention of any service in Alabama. On that discharge form,
Lloyd (Albert Lloyd Jr., a retired colonel who was the Texas Air
Guard's personnel director from 1969 to 1995 and was hired by the
Bush campaign to make sense of the governor's military records)
said, ''there should have been an entry for the period between May
1972 and May 1973.'' Said Lloyd, ''It appeared he had a bad year.
He might have lost interest, since he knew he was getting out.''
[Boston Globe 5/23/00]

No one in the Alabama National Guard ever saw him.

A spokesman for the Alabama National Guard estimates there were
600 to 700 members in the unit Bush was supposed to have served
with in 1972. But none of these men has ever come forward to say
he remembers Bush, and Bush has not named a single one of them.
(The New Republic 10/16/2000)

Even though members of the Alabama Air National Guard have offered
$1000 to anyone who can remember serving with Bush, no one has come
forward to corroborate his service, with the exception of an old
girlfriend who says she remembers him saying he was going, but does
not have any other evidence, essentially making it her word against
Bush's commanding officers' and a lack of official documents as
noted above.

Even the Bush campaign claims that he only showed up on a
single day in November and made up missed weekends, not contesting
the fact that he defied direct orders to appear on the dates stated
above.

National Guard records provided by the Guard and by the Bush
campaign indicate he did serve on Nov. 29, 1972, after the
election. These records also show a gap in service from that time
to the previous May. Mr. Bush says he made up for the lost time in
subsequent months, and guard records show he received credit for
having performed all the required service. [NYT 7/22/00]

The evidence to support Bush's service on November 29, 1972 is
highly suspect for the following reasons:

- The document offered to dispute the claim by
his commanding officers in Alabama is a single torn document that
does not have Bush's name on it, is undated and unsigned. The
document was discovered in 1998 by the man Bush hired to
investigate his record, Al Loyd, and added to the official record.
This late addition to the official record also raises additional
chain of command issues.

- There are two different versions of the
document. The one discovered' by Mr. Loyd and given to George
Magazine has handwritten annotations. The other version came from
Mr. Bush's official record through a FOIA request by Martin Heldt.
http://www.cis.net/~coldfeet/doc99.gif The FOIA version did not
have any annotations.

- The document comes from the Texas National
Guard Archives according to the numbering in the right hand corner
of the document, even though duty reports were localized at the
time, meaning his service in Alabama would not have been recorded
by the Texas Air National Guard.

#2 Bush didn't return to Ellington Air Force Base after his
temporary transfer as required.

A Bush spokesman, Dan Bartlett, said after talking with the
governor that Bush recalls performing some duty in Alabama and
''recalls coming back to Houston and doing [Guard] duty, though he
does not recall if it was on a consistent basis.''

Noting that Bush, by that point, was no longer flying, Bartlett
added, ''It's possible his presence and role became secondary.''
[Boston Globe 5/23/00]

The Truth

According to his annual evaluation by his commanding
officers, he may have been in Houston but he was not at the base.

Cleared this base 15 May 1972 According to Lieutenant Colonel
William Harris Jr. and Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Killian in Bush's
annual evaluation , Ellis Air Force Base, Houston. The report
makes clear that Bush had not been observed at his Texas unit
during the period of this report May 1972-April 1973. [Boston
Globe 5/23/00]

Even his commanding officer, whom he
called a friend did not know where he was.

Asked about that declaration, campaign spokesman Bartlett said Bush
told him that since he was no longer flying, he was doing ''odds
and ends'' under different supervisors whose names he could not
recall. But retired colonel Martin, the unit's former
administrative officer, said he too thought Bush had been in
Alabama for that entire year. Harris and Killian, he said, would
have known if Bush returned to duty at Ellington. And Bush, in his
autobiography, identifies the late colonel Killian as a friend,
making it even more likely that Killian knew where Bush was.
[Boston Globe 5/23/00]

#3 He quit flying in Texas because his plane was replaced.

In his autobiography, Mr. Bush explains that when he applied to
Harvard Business School in 1972, I was almost finished with my
commitment in the Air National Guard, and was no longer flying
because the F102 jet I has trained in was being replaced by a
different fighter.

The Truth:

His unit continued to fly the F-102 until 1974 [Boston Globe
5/23/00] If he had come back to Houston, I would have kept him
flying the 102 until he got out said retired Major Bobby W.
Hodges, But I don't remember him coming back at all'.

Lieutenant Bush, to be sure, had gone off flying status when
he went to Alabama. But had he returned to his unit in November
1972, there would have been no barrier to him flying again, except
passing a flight physical. Although the F-102 was being phased
out, his unit's records show that Guard pilots logged thousands of
hours in the F-102 in 1973.[Boston Globe 5/23/00]

His commitment was through May of 1974. (An exaggeration?)

#4 He wasn't flying in Alabama because they had different planes.

On June 26 th this report appeared in the Dallas Morning News.
Campaigning Friday in Tuscaloosa, Ala., Bush was asked about his
1972 service in that state. "I was there on a temporary assignment
and fulfilled my weekends at one period of time," he said. "I made
up some missed weekends." "I can't remember what I did, but I
wasn't flying because they didn't have the same airplanes. I
fulfilled my obligations."

The Truth:

He was no longer flying because he had been suspended in
August of 1972 for failure to accomplish a required medical exam.
[Boston Globe, 5/23/00] (Suspension document at
http://www.cis.net/~coldfeet/grounded.gif)

Bush was suspended from flying on August 1, 1972, prior to
his request for the transfer to the187th at Montgomery Alabama,
September 5, 1972. Bush did not receive permission until September
15, which was close to six weeks after his suspension from flying.

Another question is raised by the fact that he cannot
remember what he did for the Air National Guard in Alabama, despite
the fact that 28 years later he still remembers the specifics of
his work there on the campaign of William Blount as cited in a
July 22, 2000 New York Times article. In an interview 28 years
later, Mr. Bush remembered the numbers. "We all teamed together
and helped Red get about 36 percent of the vote," he said with a
short laugh, "in spite of the fact that Nixon had gotten 72
percent of the vote. The ticket-splitting was phenomenal."

#5 Three different stories on why he was suspended.

Story #1) "Bush's campaign aides have said he did not take the
physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was
in Houston." [Boston Globe 5/23/00].

The Truth:

In fact as the Boston Globe goes on to state "flight
physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight
surgeons, and some were assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force
Base in Montgomery, where Bush was living."

Story #2) Then in June, campaign officials told the London Times
Bush did not technically need to take his flight physical. "As he
was not flying, there was no reason for him to take the flight
physical exam," according to campaign spokesman Don Bartlett.

Any suggestion that he had simply decided to give up flying
prior to his suspension, with two years remaining on his commitment
and nearly one million dollars (in real terms) invested in his
training is not plausible. It is not up to an Air National Guard
pilot to decide whether or not he intends to fly.

If he had come back to Houston, I would have kept him flying
the 102 until he got out said retired Major Bobby W. Hodges [Boston
Glove 5/23/00]

Story #3) In the same article, Bush campaign spokesman Dan
Bartlett told the newspaper that Bush was aware back then that he
would be suspended for missing his medical exam, but had no choice
because he had applied for a transfer from Houston to Alabama and
his paperwork hadn't caught up with him. "It was just a question
of following the bureaucratic procedure of the time," Bartlett
said. "He knew the suspension would have to take place."

The exam was required to be completed in the three months
preceding his birthday, July 6, 1972. A three month window seems
adequate to avoid being suspended from flying.

So which is it: his family physician, he didn't have to take the
exam, or a bureaucratic snafu?

#6 Bush denied strings were pulled to get him in the Texas Air
National Guard.

I can just tell you, from my perspective, I never asked for, I
don't believe I received special treatment," Bush told reporters.
[DMN 9/08/99]

The Truth

Former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes confirmed Monday that he
recommended Gov. George W. Bush for a slot in the Texas Air
National Guard during the height of the Vietnam War, at the
request of a Bush family friend. Mr. Barnes' account came in a
written statement that was released after he testified in a
deposition stemming from a federal lawsuit.' [DMN 9/28/99]

The statement by Mr. Barnes also confirmed that he met a
year ago with a top Bush adviser to discuss the Guard matter. As
reported in The News , Mr. Bush sent a note thanking Mr. Barnes
for his help in rebutting rumors that Mr. Bush's father helped his
son find a Guard slot, the statement confirmed. [DMN 9/08/99]

"Mr. Barnes was contacted by [Houston businessman] Sid Adger
and asked to recommend George W. Bush for a pilot position with the
Air National Guard," Mr. Barnes' statement said. "Barnes called
Gen. [James] Rose and did so." [DMN 9/28/00]

"No Bush ever asked Sid Adger to help," the governor said.[DMN
9/28/00]

A spokeswoman for former President George Bush confirmed the
elder Bush's friendship with Mr. Adger but said he was "almost
positive" he never talked to Mr. Adger - or anyone else - about
getting his son into the Guard. "He said he is fairly certain - I
mean he doesn't remember everything that happened in the 1960s -
but he said he and Sid Adger never, ever talked about George W.
and the Texas Air National Guard," said Jean Becker, a spokeswoman
for the former president. "President Bush knew Sid Adger well,"
Ms. Becker said. "He loved him."' [DMN 9/08/99]

When Bush was admitted into the Guard in 1968, 100,000 other
men were on waiting lists around the country, hoping to win
admission to similar units. The Guard was popular because those
units were rarely sent to Vietnam. [LAT 7/4/99]

#7 Bush said the Texas Air National Guard was short on pilots.

"They were looking for pilots, and I was honored to serve.",
Governor Bush told the Dallas Morning News. [DMN9/08/99]

The Truth:

But Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard,
said that records do not show a pilot shortage in the Guard
squadron at the time. Hail, who reviewed the unit's personnel
records for a special Guard museum display on Gov. Bush's service,
said Bush's unit had 27 pilots at the time he began applying.
While that number was two short of its authorized strength, the
unit had two other pilots who were in training and another
awaiting a transfer. There was no apparent need to fast-track
applicants, he said. [LAT 7/4/99]

The Texas Air Guard had about 900 slots for pilots, air and
ground crew members, supervisors, technicians and support staff.
Sgt. Donald Dean Barnhart, who still serves in the Guard, said
that he kept a waiting list of about 150 applicants' names. He
said it took up to a year and a half for one name to move to the
top of the list. "Quite a few gentlemen were wanting to get in,"
he recalled. For Bush, there was no wait. He met with commander
Staudt in his Houston office and made his application--all before
his graduation in June. [LAT, 7/4/99]

Beckwith, Bush's spokesman, painted a different picture. He said
that the Guard needed pilots at the time and Bush was available.
"A lot of people weren't qualified" or willing to fly, he said, so
special commissions were offered to those willing to undergo the
extra training required.

[LAT 7/4/99]

But Shoemake, who also served as a chief of personnel in
the Texas Guard from 1972 to 1980, remembers no pilot shortage. "We
had so many people coming in who were super-qualified," he said.
[LAT 7/4/99]

Records from his [Bush's] military file show that in January
1968, after inquiring about Guard admission, Mr. Bush went to an
Air Force recruiting office near Yale, where he took and passed
the test required by the Air Force for pilot trainees. His score
on the pilot aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the
25th percentile, the lowest allowed for would-be fliers. [7/4/99]

#8 There was no special deal when he received a direct appointment to
second lieutenant right after basic training, with no
qualifications.

Officials in Bush's presidential campaign denied last week that he
was treated differently from other recruits. "Our information is
there was absolutely no special deal," said spokesman David
Beckwith. [LAT 7/4/99]

He [Commander Staudt] recommended Bush for a direct appointment--a
special process that would allow the young recruit to become a
second lieutenant right out of basic training without having to go
through the rigors of officer candidate school. The process also
cleared the way for a slot in pilot training school. [LAT, 7/4/99]

The Truth:

But Charles C. Shoemake, an Air Force veteran who later
joined the Texas Air National Guard, eventually retiring as a full
colonel, said that direct appointments were rare and hard to get,
and required extensive credentials. "I went from master sergeant
to first lieutenant based on my three years in college and 15
years as a noncommissioned officer. Then I got considered for a
direct appointment." Even then, he said, "I didn't know whether I
was going to get into pilot training." [LAT 7/4/99]

As for a direct commission for someone of Bush's limited
qualifications, Hail said, "I've never heard of that. Generally
they did that for doctors only, mostly because we needed extra
flight surgeons." [LAT 7/4/99]

#9 As evidence he wasn't dodging combat, Mr. Bush has pointed to
his efforts to try to volunteer for a program that rotated Guard
pilots to Vietnam, although he wasn't called. [DMN 7/4/99]

The Truth:

Mr. Bush's application for the Guard included a box to be
checked specifying whether he did or did not volunteer for overseas
duty. His includes a check mark in the box not wanting to volunteer
for such an assignment. [DMN 7/4/99]

#10 In Bush's 1999 autobiography, A Charge to Keep, Mr. Bush says
that after completing flight training in June 1970, I continued
flying with my unit for the next several years.

The Truth:

But 22 months after finishing his training, and with two
years left on his six-year commitment, Bush gave up flying - for
good, it would turn out. [Boston Globe, 5/23/00]

Several Years or 22 months an exaggeration? Perhaps, the bigger
question is why did he quit flying?

* The New York Times reports that Bush has had problems
articulating words recently, using "terriers" instead of "tariffs
and trade barriers," "obsfucate" in place of "obfuscate," and
"post-cold world" rather than "post-Cold War world." [Bruni, New
York Times, 1/8/00]

http://www.infowars.com/print/Bush/military_lies.htm
__________________________________________________ __

--

"Naturally, the common people don't want war;
neither in Russia nor in England nor in America,
nor for that matter in Germany.
That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders
of the country who determine the policy and
it is always a simple matter to drag the people
along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist
dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing
the country to danger. It works the same way
in any country."

- Hermann Goering, Nazi Reichsmarshall

On 2004-02-06, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:12:28 GMT, "Gary Drescher"
wrote in Message-Id:
MsxUb.225242$I06.2452447@attbi_s01:

Here's a little something (on-topic) I found in rec.aviation.military
recently:

Bush's Top 10 Lies, Exaggerations And 'Obsfucations'
About His Military Service

Rather old news. This didn't get any traction in the last election
and won't in this one either.

My only regret in voting for Bush is his reluctance to use the
veto to dampen some of the insane pork barrell spending by congress
(including the honorable senator from Mass.)


Very inventive, getting the Nazi reference in so early in thread cycle.

On 6 Feb 2004 13:15:30 GMT, Doug Carter wrote
in Message-Id: :

On 2004-02-06, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:12:28 GMT, "Gary Drescher"
wrote in Message-Id:
MsxUb.225242$I06.2452447@attbi_s01:

Here's a little something (on-topic) I found in rec.aviation.military
recently:

Bush's Top 10 Lies, Exaggerations And 'Obsfucations'
About His Military Service

Rather old news.

I'm happy to see you don't refute the information.

This didn't get any traction in the last election
and won't in this one either.

I'm not so sure about that. Given the Executive spin on the
intelligence suggesting Iraqi WMD, this information underscores baby
Bush's lack moral veracity. At any rate, to question Kerry's
distinguished war record, while the sitting president's record shows
him as the privileged son of a plutocrat with the power to nimbly
dodge his duty without repercussion is telling. Kerry is a real
pilot. Baby Bush is a puppet of the wealthy posturing for those who
lack the intelligence to perceive his deceit.

My only regret in voting for Bush is his reluctance to use the
veto to dampen some of the insane pork barrell spending by congress
(including the honorable senator from Mass.)

Baby Bush dampen spending? That's a laugh. When he entered office
there was a surplus. In three years he has personally managed to run
the deficit up to a projected $2.5 trillion mostly for special
interests (Halliburton , pharmaceutical makers, military, ...). Are
you so blinded, that you can't see through his transparent
prevarication?

Vote for him again, and you'll find a lame duck will provide even more
for you to regret.

Very inventive, getting the Nazi reference in so early in thread cycle.

That was part of the original article posted to rec.aviation.military:
Message-ID:

Incidently, what is a "thread cycle?"



--
In America, anyone can become president. That's one of the risks you
take. --Adlai E. Stevenson


"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little
longer." ~ Henry Kissinger


"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain
the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the
government." - Patrick Henry


"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise
of fighting a foreign enemy." ~ James Madison, while a United States
Congressman


"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly
unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware
of change in the air however slight lest we become unwitting victims
of the darkness."
~ William O. Douglas, Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court


"I'm the master of low expectations."
--GWB, aboard Air Force One, 04Jun2003

In article , Larry Dighera
writes:


On 6 Feb 2004 13:15:30 GMT, Doug Carter wrote
in Message-Id: :

On 2004-02-06, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 20:12:28 GMT, "Gary Drescher"
wrote in Message-Id:
MsxUb.225242$I06.2452447@attbi_s01:

Here's a little something (on-topic) I found in rec.aviation.military
recently:

Bush's Top 10 Lies, Exaggerations And 'Obsfucations'
About His Military Service

Rather old news.

I'm happy to see you don't refute the information.


Why do it again? It was refuted here in great detail last election cycle.
Google this group for Bush's Military Record and you will find an article by
Slate, a liberal Ezine, documenting every step and exhonorating Bush of any
misdeed.

This didn't get any traction in the last election
and won't in this one either.

I'm not so sure about that. Given the Executive spin on the
intelligence suggesting Iraqi WMD, this information underscores baby
Bush's lack moral veracity. At any rate, to question Kerry's
distinguished war record, while the sitting president's record shows
him as the privileged son of a plutocrat with the power to nimbly
dodge his duty without repercussion is telling.

Kerry's military record is honorable, but his life since then as hypocrite and
gigolo is embarrassing.

Kerry is a real
pilot.

Yeah, flying a light twin is SO much more manly than flying a supersonic
interceptor.


--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

On 2004-02-06, Larry Dighera wrote:
Bush's Top 10 Lies, Exaggerations And 'Obsfucations'
About His Military Service

Rather old news.

I'm happy to see you don't refute the information.

Unnecessary - This topic was beaten to death in the last election and
proved to be ineffictive for Bush's opposition. It's difficult to
convince people that volunteering to be a fighter pilot is the act
of a coward. There are a few too many Air Guard pilots that were and
are deployed to war zones to make this convincing.

The topic just doesn't seem to matter. Bush1, shot down in WWII
lost to Bill Clinton who completly dodged military service and never
retracted his letter in which he described his hatred and loathing
of the military. I just don't think anyone cares.

As Bill said, "its the economy, stupid." (please note these are
Bill's words, not mine and I DO NOT directed this invective at you)

... At any rate, to question Kerry's distinguished war record...

I didn't and won't do that. Other issues will be more interesting:

Kerry, the populist, is one of the richest men in the country and
has held the record for accepting donations from lobbiests for 15 years.

Baby Bush dampen spending? That's a laugh.

I agree; almost as infurating to his base as amnasty.

Incidently, what is a "thread cycle?"

Usually it seems to take 15 or 20 "back and forth" postings before
someone invokes the Nazi anology or some other silly extreamism.

"Big John" wrote in message
...

This url from National Review. A must read.

It's a "must read" because why? I read it, and found nothing terribly new
or insightful or relevant to now, more than thirty years after Buckley made
the speech. Frankly, Buckley's jingoism seems pretty misguided in hindsight
and irrelevant to pilot discussions in any case.

I'll grant you, it's nice to have a reminder about how Kerry stood up for
what he felt was right, reporting his own personal experiences as a Vietnam
veteran, in a political environment he knew would not have easily accepted
the truth.

But none of that has to do with piloting. I see absolutely no reason this
is in any way on-topic in this newsgroup.

Pete

It's a "must read" because why? I read it, and found nothing terribly new
or insightful or relevant to now, more than thirty years after Buckley made
the speech. Frankly, Buckley's jingoism seems pretty misguided in hindsight
and irrelevant to pilot discussions in any case.

I'll grant you, it's nice to have a reminder about how Kerry stood up for
what he felt was right, reporting his own personal experiences as a Vietnam
veteran, in a political environment he knew would not have easily accepted
the truth.

But none of that has to do with piloting. I see absolutely no reason this
is in any way on-topic in this newsgroup.

I see no reason why, after the thread of a hundred or so posts deifying Kerry,
you find it offensive that one post points to his feet of clay.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

"Wdtabor" wrote in message
...
"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
But none of that has to do with piloting. I see absolutely no reason
this
is in any way on-topic in this newsgroup.

I see no reason why, after the thread of a hundred or so posts deifying
Kerry,
you find it offensive that one post points to his feet of clay.

Check that thread again, Don. It began with an on-topic post about Kerry as
a pilot, followed by some on-topic speculation (both pro and con) as to what
effect his election would have on GA. It veered into off-topic political
discussion when off-topic anti-Kerry notes were posted and drew rebuttals.

Personally, I don't mind occasional political discussions here when they
arise in the course of on-topic threads (I don't initiate such discussions,
though I sometimes respond to them). But here, we have a thread whose
initial post is simply an undisguised off-topic political statement.

--Gary


Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG