When to acknowledge ATC

Ron Natalie wrote:

This is like Homer Simpson who where it was written do not write
below this line, wrote "OK."

When I was younger, a number of people I knew would write "Please" under such a
line. Some of the forms in the Atlanta area actually got changed as a result of
this.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

In article ,
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
m...

Thank you. This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get at all
along in this thread. You *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo
Airspace' to be allowed to enter Bravo airspace. That is your clearance
into it. Even the FARs state it:

Sec. 91.131 - Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B
airspace area except in compliance with ?91.129 and the following
rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility
having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that
area.

Some people just fail to understand that.

The regulation says the operator must receive an ATC clearance, it does not
state he *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace' to be allowed to
enter Bravo airspace.

I'm telling you, as well as the 7110.65P tells you, that you
will hear that. Going from the opposite direction, you will hear
something from Clearance Delivery, stating:

Mooney 64B, cleared out of Las Vegas Class Bravo Airspace. On
departure, turn left heading 160, climb/maintain 5000, departure
frequency 118.4, squawk 0633.

There's your clearance out of Bravo. If you're VFR, you'll hear
'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace'. That's ATC regulations there, and
ATC are to adhere to that.

Funny. I flew KOAK / KMRY yesterday IFR on a routing that took me deep
into KSFO's Class B airspace and never *once* heard that magic phrase
"Cleared into Class Bravo...", on the ground or in the air, not even
when returning KMRY / KOAK through the Class B. Were NorCal -- or
Oakland and Monterey clearances -- wrong to not use that phrase (a
phrase I've yet to hear while flying IFR, despite having been in and out
of the KSFO Class B on a regular basis)? Will you be telling them
they're wrong next time you see them?

Is there some reason you think that the clearance I *did* get from
Oakland clearance -- "November XYZ, cleared to Monterey airport via the
NUEV0 5 departure, SHOEY transition, MUNSO, direct [then altitude and
frequency stuff, etc.]" wasn't sufficient to allow me to enter the KSFO
class B airspace? At what point am I supposed to hear the magic phrase
on a flight like this?

This thread has certainly had a sort of morbid entertainment value
watching you go up against Steven M, an experienced controller and pilot
-- basically, you seem to be a little out of your depth here...

Hamish

On Sun, 8 May 2005 21:42:33 -0500, A Lieberman
wrote in ::

If so, I would be required to read back???

There is no FAA regulation *requiring* reed back of a clearance.
Subsequent to 'rogering' your clearance, you may detect a bit of
consternation in the controller's voice if you are in contact with
her, but that's about it.

On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:33:57 GMT, A Guy Called Tyketto
wrote in
::

I agree, but I never said you'd hear 'cleared into class C'.
Just that if they tell you to remain outside of it, that should be read
back,

Right, but answering 'roger' or 'wilco' will not result in a pilot
violation of FAA regulations.

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

Crap, didn't mean to cause such a storm.....

I was always taught that clearances required a readback I.E the following
situations (not all inclusive). I had three instructors that were very
consistent about this.


An instructor is free to require his students to read back clearances.
There is no regulation that requires clearances be read back.



Sundowner 1234L, cleared as filed to Tupelo, climb and maintain 2000,
expect 6000 in 5 minutes, squawk 0177, departure frequency 123.90. I
reply 34L cleared as filed to TUP, climb and maintain 2000, expect 6000 in
5
minutes, squawk 0177, departure frequency 123.90. I wouldn't reply roger?


You can reply "roger", you can read back all of it or part of it, you can
say, "got it, thanks". All are done regularly.



Sundowner 34L cleared for the ILS approach 16 right. I reply 34L cleared
for the ILS 16 right. I wouldn't reply roger?


You could.



Sundowner 1234L cleared to land 16 right, contact tower point niner. I
reply 34 Lima cleared to land 16 right contact tower point niner. I
wouldn't reply roger?


You could, although "cleared to land" tends to come AFTER contact is made
with the tower.



The above three scenarios are clearances?????


Yup. Keep in mind that nobody's saying it's wrong to read back a clearance,
it's just that it's not required.



If so, I would be required to read back???


No.



If not, why not say "roger
34L" to acknowledge cleared to land, or "roger 34L" to cleared for the
approaches if I am not required to readback???


Go ahead, many do.



I had an ILS approach canceled on me. Was I not required to read back
that cancellation of a clearance.


No.



Saying "roger 34L" in the clag I don't think
is enough???


Why not?



I bring these three scenarios up, as I never have heard anything different
then read back the clearances as noted above.

If it truly is not required, then why does the airlines, spam cans tie up
the frequency with reading back the clearances.


It's considered a good practice, it's just not REQUIRED.

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...
[...]
There's your clearance out of Bravo. If you're VFR, you'll hear
'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace'. That's ATC regulations there, and
ATC are to adhere to that.

Funny. I flew KOAK / KMRY yesterday IFR on a routing that took me deep
into KSFO's Class B airspace and never *once* heard that magic phrase
"Cleared into Class Bravo..."

Not that the previous poster is correct in what he says, but how does your
IFR flight relate to his claim regarding VFR flight?

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

Not that the previous poster is correct in what he says, but how does your
IFR flight relate to his claim regarding VFR flight?

The previous poster is incorrect in what he says, the phrase "Cleared into
Class Bravo Airspace" is not mandated and does not appear in FAAO 7110.65P.

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

[...]

There's your clearance out of Bravo. If you're VFR, you'll hear
'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace'. That's ATC regulations there, and
ATC are to adhere to that.

Funny. I flew KOAK / KMRY yesterday IFR on a routing that took me deep
into KSFO's Class B airspace and never *once* heard that magic phrase
"Cleared into Class Bravo..."


Not that the previous poster is correct in what he says, but how does your
IFR flight relate to his claim regarding VFR flight?


It's not required for VFR either. All is requried is you get some
clearance. Even the controllers handbook which espouses the
"proper phraseology" for controllers to give such clearances
doesn't reuqire "CLEARED TO ENTER THE CLASS BRAVO." He even
quoted the appropratie section and didn't note the that there
were multiple versions of the clearance in the example.

Yes, you want to hear the word "CLEARED", no it doesn't have to
be word for word "CLEARED INTO THE CLASS BRAVO.

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Hamish Reid wrote:

This thread has certainly had a sort of morbid entertainment value
watching you go up against Steven M, an experienced controller and pilot
-- basically, you seem to be a little out of your depth here...

Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet. Everybody happy now?

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. com...

Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet. Everybody happy now?


I'd have been happier if you had tried to learn something.