Running dry?

On 2005-08-22, Jay Honeck wrote:
- Checking the accuracy of your fuel gauges?

That's absurd -- anyone who relies on fuel gauges is an off-field landing
waiting to happen.

Some people who don't know how well their fuel gauges are working are
also an off-field landing waiting to happen. So you don't know how good
your fuel gauges are, so ignore them - then one day, for whatever
reason, you have a fuel leak or similar problem - and your watch says
you have 1.5 hours remaining, but you really have five minutes
remaining. If I own a plane, I damned well make sure the fuel gauges
work. I want them in my cross check. Working fuel gauges can tell you
that there's a problem.

As I said earlier, personally, I don't like running fuel tanks dry, but
I will run a tank fairly empty. Consider the Apache I used to fly with
four tanks. On a VFR cross country, I like to plan on an hour reserve
under normal circumstances. I'd rather not have that one hour divided
evenly between four fuel tanks! (Or would you argue an hour reserve is
too little?) I'd rather have the vast majority of that hour reserve in
one tank.

In my plane, it can take 10 to 12 seconds for fuel to feed from one of our
tip tanks. If I ran a main tank dry, the prop stopped

If you don't have an autofeathering prop, how will it stop?

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article , Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

On the Cherokee Six, I'd generally start on one main, climb to altitude and
after about half an hour, switch to the opposite tip tank. Then to the other
tip tank (after I don't remember how long... I think it was 45 minutes)...

In the Skylane RG I take off on both, cruise on both and land on both.

Do newer low wing designs (Cirrus, et al) still require the pilot to
disconnect and reconnect the fuel supply while in flight?

Pilots who end up landing off-airport (or, worse, dying) because of
something as stupid as running out of gas

Those pilots have NOTHING at all to do with what we're discussing here. on
the
contrary, we're discussing precise fuel planning.

No, you're talking about doing something stupid in a very precise way. That
doesn't change the fact that it's not very bright to purposefully run tanks
dry.

1. Refuel after every flight.

If you're talking about topping off, that may be practical in your plane -
congrats on that! It isn't in mine and it sure isn't in the majority of
single-engine four-seaters, since you're giving up WAY too much useful
load.

I said "refuel" after every flight, not "top it off" after every flight.

2. Install a fuel totalizer.

Which becomes even more useful when running tanks dry.

??? Why's that? Just so you can verify that your totalizer is actually
measuring your fuel precisely to the last ounce?

There are a multitude of other ways to do that, without waiting for the
engine to stumble.

3. Never try to stretch your range. Bite the bullet, land and buy gas.

Which has nothing to do with the technique recommended here.

???? People here (outside of Deakin's article) are claiming that they
"routinely" run tanks dry. What other possible reason is there to do so
routinely, *other* than to stretch your range?

4. Measure your gas with your watch, never your fuel gauges.

Which, again, has nothing to do with the technique recommended here.

It's the *attitude* of "routinely" running tanks dry that I believe leads to
guys running out of gas. Running on the razor's edge of empty in an
aircraft is just asking for trouble.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

If the flight is longer than an hour, we will then run the tips in 15
minute
increments. (Or 10, or 20 -- whatever it takes to keep them even when we
arrive at our destination.) In our plane, having 17 gallons WAY out at
the
end of the wing means that you had better keep things balanced, or you're
gonna be flying tipped at an angle pretty quickly!

If I understand what you're saying, you always take off with the tips
filled, even for a short flight. If that's the case, aren't you hauling
200 lbs of fuel around all the time that you don't really need?

Yep. But the extra wing loading (by having the tips full) really, REALLY
makes a difference in turbulence. We have flown places with other pilots
who bitterly complained about the moderate chop en route, which we had not
noticed at all.

Also, in a plane like the Pathfinder, with a 1460 pound useful load, there
is no advantage gained by going light on fuel. (Well, other than rate of
climb, which -- in Iowa -- is pretty much a non-issue. There is no such
thing as having to "out-climb" the terrain around here, and we routinely see
700 fpm climb in summer even with full tanks) Therefore, we top 'er off
after every flight -- even when we have only flown for an hour or two.

If your
mains give you (I'm guessing here) 4 hours endurance, and you're planning
a
1 hour flight, I would think having 3 hour reserve would be more than
enough for even the most conservative pilot.

We are VERY conservative with fuel management.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

That's absurd -- anyone who relies on fuel gauges is an off-field landing
waiting to happen.

Some people who don't know how well their fuel gauges are working are
also an off-field landing waiting to happen. So you don't know how good
your fuel gauges are, so ignore them - then one day, for whatever
reason, you have a fuel leak or similar problem - and your watch says
you have 1.5 hours remaining, but you really have five minutes
remaining. If I own a plane, I damned well make sure the fuel gauges
work. I want them in my cross check. Working fuel gauges can tell you
that there's a problem.

A very good point, and one that I assumed was implicitly understood but --
given the fact that we're cross-posting in the student forum -- should be
clearly stated.

Our gauges happen to be remarkably accurate in all flight regimes, and at
all fuel levels. We watch them carefully -- but always time our fuel AND
have a fuel totalizer AND refuel every time we push the plane in the hangar.
To say we're anal about fuel management would not be an exaggeration.

In my plane, it can take 10 to 12 seconds for fuel to feed from one of
our
tip tanks. If I ran a main tank dry, the prop stopped

If you don't have an autofeathering prop, how will it stop?

I suppose you could get too slow to keep the prop turning, although I've not
tested this "theory" in flight, for obvious reasons.

I've read of this happening to pilots (admittedly in Cubs)...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

As a matter of fact, I believe that the fuel quantity indicators are only
required to be accurate at zero fuel in level flight (for a/c certified
under Part 23).

Nope. They are required to report the amount of fuel in the tank. They can't do
that without being accurate.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Jay,

No, you're talking about doing something stupid in a very precise way. That
doesn't change the fact that it's not very bright to purposefully run tanks
dry.

Well, apparently you are not able to look beyond your own limited opinion or
even accept that it is not more than that - an opinion. Instead, you continue
badmouthing people just because they differ with you. That's too bad and very
out of character for you, if I may say so.

I said "refuel" after every flight, not "top it off" after every flight.

If you meant that, I fail to see the connection.

It's the *attitude* of "routinely" running tanks dry that I believe leads to
guys running out of gas.

Ok, then give us just one example to back up your belief. Just one. And next
time, do it before you start calling people dumb - because I am sure you can't
find an example. Which, well, would make YOU look pretty dumb, wouldn't it?


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jay Honeck wrote:

Our gauges happen to be remarkably accurate in all flight regimes, and at
all fuel levels.

The gauges in my Maule were also very accurate.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Jay Honeck wrote:

Therefore, we top 'er off
after every flight -- even when we have only flown for an hour or two.

You must not demand much of your plane. Don't you ever just putz around
the local area landing on dirt strips just generally screwing off? I
never fill my 182's tanks unless I am going on a long cross country. I
normally fly with 30-40 gallons onboard. That 240-300 pounds I'm not
carrying makes a big difference in takeoff and landing performance. I'm
now in the middle of learning about my Bonanza I will be getting next
week. I don't care so much about the top end. Any idiot can push the
levers forward and see how fast it will go. I am mostly concentrating
on the low speed end. A friend has a V tail similar to mine except his
is a couple years older and has the 260 hp motor, mine has 285 hp. I
watched him takeoff Saturday. Took him 1400 feet to leave the runway
with just him and 80 gallons, no flaps. I was disappointed as my goal
is to be able to use a friends 1300 foot runway. Now I already know he
always has full tanks. Bo's have bladders and he's afraid of the rubber
drying out if he leaves any air in the tanks for more than about 15
minutes. He said he held it on the ground til 80 mph and then yanked it
off. Very good news. Take 40 gallons of fuel out, use half flaps and
then fly it off at 60 mph with 25 more horsepower weighing about 200
pounds less then he did. Now if you always have full tanks you can't do
this stuff.

Doug Carter wrote:

In article , Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

On the Cherokee Six, I'd generally start on one main, climb to altitude and
after about half an hour, switch to the opposite tip tank. Then to the other
tip tank (after I don't remember how long... I think it was 45 minutes)...

In the Skylane RG I take off on both, cruise on both and land on both.

Do newer low wing designs (Cirrus, et al) still require the pilot to
disconnect and reconnect the fuel supply while in flight?

I think we are talking about individually selectable tanks ... not
systems that take fuel from both tanks simultaneously.

I see that this is going to s student list as well. CLASS...do as
your instructor tells you and be careful of any opinions expressed on
the internet. And don't do stupid things.

Ron Lee