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#42
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On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:54:35 GMT, john szpara
wrote: Seems to me that in this class of used airplane the primary cost issue isn't purchase price but rather annual insurance and maintenance costs. Any pressurized, cabin class twin you buy for $150K will probably require a LOT of maintenance! How much are you willing to spend annually to keep your bird flying at peak safety levels? Are you willing to devote maybe a week I'm figuring $20-30k/year for 100 hours flying. Extra money would be available for the (inevitable) unexpected. I won't even attempt to buy unless the revenue stream is in place for it. I would also be using it partly for my business. John, You are definitely asking the right questions about the twins. And you are right to be asking here before getting out your checkbook. In the traditional r.a.owning way - keep asking the questions and we'll keep saying you can't afford it until you're stuck on the ground. Seriously though, $20-30k for 100hrs/year works out to $200-300/hr. It is impossible to own/operate a 421 for $200/hr. The GTSIO520s burn 25gph (each) in cruise. Given the $3/gallon prices we have in Chicago - that's $150/hr right there. A rebuilt GTSIO520 is $45k, assuming it goes 2000 hrs before the rebuild that's $22.50/hr per engine. So another $45/hr. Plus, if the engines are mid-time, you need to be able to make up the 'already spent' hours in the overhaul fund. This also does not include the costs to install the new engine or remove the old one. Most of these engines will require 1 (if not 2) top overhauls to make it to 2000 hrs. That's another 10-20k per engine per TOH. Hell, even oil changes on these things are serious business. Basically a case of oil per engine for each change, plus however much burn they have. Figure $100 per oil change, and $50 for burned oil between changes. Tiedown/Hangar costs are variable, but it is my opinion that a high-performance/complex aircraft should really be in a heated/climate controlled hangar. The wind/weather are really hard on planes sitting outside, and when things break on a 421, they are expensive. Even so, let's assume that a tie-down is available for $600/year or $6/hr. Insurance will be another heap. My low-time ME quotes for a $140k Seneca II with $1M smooth ranged from $5.5k to $12k. I'm sure a 421 with 8 seats and a higher hull value will be much worse. Let's say you can get insurance for $10k/year which would still be $100/hr. So a rough estimate per hour Fuel: $150 Oil: $6 Eng Reserve: $45 Tiedown $6 Insurance: $100 ------------------------------------ That's close to $300 and it does not include annual inspections or misc maintenance costs. -Nathan |
#43
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You are definitely asking the right questions about the twins. And you are right to be asking here before getting out your checkbook. In the traditional r.a.owning way - keep asking the questions and we'll keep saying you can't afford it until you're stuck on the ground. Yeah, a while back I was asking about a favorite plane of mine, the T210, and they were close to having me talked out of buying it, or anything else. The dream to fly and own is persistant, though. Seriously though, $20-30k for 100hrs/year works out to $200-300/hr. It is impossible to own/operate a 421 for $200/hr. The GTSIO520s burn 25gph (each) in cruise. Given the $3/gallon prices we have in Chicago - that's $150/hr right there. A 421 is almost certainly more plane than I need. The 340 is probably closer to the truth, but is more crampt than the 414. If I can find a 414 that I can afford, both on the front and back end, then that might be the bird. Assuming, of course, that wing spar AD doesn't kill all 300/400 Cessnas. So a rough estimate per hour Fuel: $150 Oil: $6 Eng Reserve: $45 Tiedown $6 Insurance: $100 ------------------------------------ That's close to $300 and it does not include annual inspections or misc maintenance costs. Thanks for the writeup. This kind of stuff is invaluable in helping the decision process. John Szpara Affordable Satellite Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT |
#44
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Piper Aztec. Best single engine piston performer. Nice fat wing, good
low speed handling. Piper Cheyenne is the best small turbine. Check the accident statistics. |
#45
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john szpara wrote: Why do you want a potty? They stink and YOU have to empty them. I have had potty in my airplane for 6 yrs and it has never been used. You've never been on a long trip with my wife. When we're driving, we have to stop every hour for the restroom. That's tough to do on a long flight, especially if you're at the flight levels and she tells you she "has to go". Not such a big deal for me, if I have a relief tube, but for her its a different story. My family has made two 800 nm trips in the last two years. The first was in a Cherokee Six. The legs were three to three-and-a-half hours. This was max bladder range for the kids. The second trip was in a C182. Prior to departure, my wife decreed that legs were to be two-hours (+/-). It added two fuel stops and two hours to the flight, but everyone was happy. |
#46
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"john szpara" wrote in message s.com... You are definitely asking the right questions about the twins. And you are right to be asking here before getting out your checkbook. In the traditional r.a.owning way - keep asking the questions and we'll keep saying you can't afford it until you're stuck on the ground. Yeah, a while back I was asking about a favorite plane of mine, the T210, and they were close to having me talked out of buying it, or anything else. The dream to fly and own is persistant, though. Seriously, don't let anybody talk you out of doing what you want to do because you will regret it. I think most of the posters here are just trying to make sure that you think of all the angles. I am seriously thinking of getting rid of my current airplane in the next few years for many of the reasons that have been brought up. Going to Simcom is a minimium of four days and $15,000. Going in for maitenance is two days just to drop off the airplane and pick it up again. There is no way that I save SIX DAYS a year by owning an airplane. I don't fly around anymore just to look out the window. My plan is to build a Murphy Moose (6 place bushplane) that can be maintained by myself and where I can get training locally. I would also save well over $100k/yr in expenses. I can find the time and I can afford the price but I am reaching the point where I ask myself if I really want to. Once you cross a certain threshold of airplane performance, the commitment, both in term of time and money starts growing geometrically. Mike MU-2 |
#47
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On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 04:35:56 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote: Interesting. The *only* reason I fly is to enjoy the view out the window (to the tune of 200+ hours per year), and to transport myself to (relatively local) places I've never been before, or to go places you can only get to with an airplane (most of which, you can only get to with a "bush" airplane). I own a simple/old tail-dragger now, but in earlier days, I used to long for high/fast stuff (the more complex, the better, although I've never had the pleasure of flying equipment like you're airplane Mike). These days, something like a Champ on a summer day at 800' AGL putting along at 85-90mph is my idea of fun. If I need to get across the country in a hurry, I hop onto a tube (airliner). The Murphy Moose is a neat rig. If I were to build one, I'd have to hang/use the M-14PF (400hp) engine. Bela P. Havasreti "john szpara" wrote in message ws.com... You are definitely asking the right questions about the twins. And you are right to be asking here before getting out your checkbook. In the traditional r.a.owning way - keep asking the questions and we'll keep saying you can't afford it until you're stuck on the ground. Yeah, a while back I was asking about a favorite plane of mine, the T210, and they were close to having me talked out of buying it, or anything else. The dream to fly and own is persistant, though. Seriously, don't let anybody talk you out of doing what you want to do because you will regret it. I think most of the posters here are just trying to make sure that you think of all the angles. I am seriously thinking of getting rid of my current airplane in the next few years for many of the reasons that have been brought up. Going to Simcom is a minimium of four days and $15,000. Going in for maitenance is two days just to drop off the airplane and pick it up again. There is no way that I save SIX DAYS a year by owning an airplane. I don't fly around anymore just to look out the window. My plan is to build a Murphy Moose (6 place bushplane) that can be maintained by myself and where I can get training locally. I would also save well over $100k/yr in expenses. I can find the time and I can afford the price but I am reaching the point where I ask myself if I really want to. Once you cross a certain threshold of airplane performance, the commitment, both in term of time and money starts growing geometrically. Mike MU-2 |
#48
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In article .net,
Mike Rapoport wrote: I don't fly around anymore just to look out the window. [...] I would also save well over $100k/yr in expenses. Sounds like you need a helicopter! -- Ben Jackson http://www.ben.com/ |
#49
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mmmm probably.... But, I just wrote a check yesterday for 70K for new
software and hardware for the office... There went the down payment on the C-90 so I can forget that - and I won't even get any fun for the 70K... Life's a bummer sometimes... denny "Mike Rapoport" wrote in message ink.net... If his exposure is covered somehow then why wouldn't he? :-) Mike MU-2 |
#50
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I am seriously thinking of getting rid of my current airplane in the next
few years for many of the reasons that have been brought up. Going to Simcom is a minimium of four days and $15,000. Going in for maitenance is two days just to drop off the airplane and pick it up again. There is no way that I save SIX DAYS a year by owning an airplane. I don't fly around I read an article that you can do Flightsafety sim training for something like $4500 (or so) a year, and go as many times as you want/need. That's a twin simulator, and the writer of the article raved about the quality of the sim and the training. John Szpara Affordable Satellite Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT |
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