Dr Hans Kammler

Can anyone tell me if the death of SS Obergruppenfuhrer Kammler was
ever resolved or ever investigated fully by any government after WWII.
There seems to be alot of speculation about this man, is there a
single piece of documentary evidence to suggest his involvment with
any German nuclear programme during WWII. I have heard his name
mentioned in relation to a host of secret projects, death ray weapons
etc but never has this been supported by any historical documents.
Nick Cooke mentions him in his book but really Cooke just spins the
same old Nazi UFO yarn which has been doing the rounds this past 20
years or so - in his revised 'who dunnit format'.

Could Kammler have survived the war and made a peace deal with the
allies as Gen Wolff did in Operation Sunrise? I think if Kammler's war
diary could be found it would answer alot of interesting questions.
Comments welcomed.

Andy

On 23 Feb 2004 09:25:07 -0800, (Andy Simmons)
disturbed the phosphur particles on my screen with the following:

Can anyone tell me if the death of SS Obergruppenfuhrer Kammler was
ever resolved or ever investigated fully by any government after WWII.
There seems to be alot of speculation about this man, is there a
single piece of documentary evidence to suggest his involvment with
any German nuclear programme during WWII. I have heard his name
mentioned in relation to a host of secret projects, death ray weapons
etc but never has this been supported by any historical documents.
Nick Cooke mentions him in his book but really Cooke just spins the
same old Nazi UFO yarn which has been doing the rounds this past 20
years or so - in his revised 'who dunnit format'.

Could Kammler have survived the war and made a peace deal with the
allies as Gen Wolff did in Operation Sunrise? I think if Kammler's war
diary could be found it would answer alot of interesting questions.
Comments welcomed.

There's a ****load of stuff easily found with Google.

"Andy Simmons" wrote in message
om...
Can anyone tell me if the death of SS Obergruppenfuhrer Kammler was
ever resolved or ever investigated fully by any government after WWII.

No and thats not surprising considering the chaos overwhelming Germany
at the time. Dornberger (who hated the man) reported that Kammler
had ordered his adjutatnt to shoot him and its known that he didnt
acompany those that fled towards the American forces


There seems to be alot of speculation about this man, is there a
single piece of documentary evidence to suggest his involvment with
any German nuclear programme during WWII.

None at all. He was an 'expert' at running concentration camps
not a physicist or engineer and the German nuclear program
was never more than a relatively low key research program
that never employed more than a 100 or so people.

I have heard his name
mentioned in relation to a host of secret projects, death ray weapons
etc but never has this been supported by any historical documents.
Nick Cooke mentions him in his book but really Cooke just spins the
same old Nazi UFO yarn which has been doing the rounds this past 20
years or so - in his revised 'who dunnit format'.

Could Kammler have survived the war and made a peace deal with the
allies as Gen Wolff did in Operation Sunrise?

No, he really had nothing to offer, the Americans had Dornberger,
Von Braun etc. while Heisenberg and co were safely under wraps
at Farm Hall were it became apparent they were knew less than
the western allies had in 1942.

The Soviets of course had no shortage of people who knew how to
build Gulag's and the west had no need to so his one area of expertise
was throughly redundant.

Its remotely possible that he got out through and became a
farmer in Argentina but doubtful IMHO

I think if Kammler's war
diary could be found it would answer alot of interesting questions.

Assuming he kept one.

Keith

No, he really had nothing to offer, the Americans had Dornberger,
Von Braun etc. while Heisenberg and co were safely under wraps
at Farm Hall were it became apparent they were knew less than
the western allies had in 1942.

Was it not Kammler, however, who handed the rocket scientists over to
the Americans. I know Kammler was not physically present but it was
him who disobeyed Himmler's orders to "give each scientist a rifle and
send them to the Eastern front". From the book 'The Rocket Team' it
was Kammler who ferried the scientists to safety aboard his private
train, which the scientists had nicknamed the 'Vengenace Express'.
Kammler also told Speer in April 1945 that he was going to make a deal
with the Americans, in which he would trade the rockets and other
developments for his freedom. Another book by Jean Michel 'DORA' ( a
survivor of the camp) claims that Kammler was secretly dealing with
the French Resistance towards the end of the war. Was it not Kammler
who also left the Harz mountain missile complex in fully functioning
order for the American handover, once again disobeying orders to
destroy the factories and their contents? One could argue that the
"Americans only had Dornberger, Von Braun and the rockets etc" only
because Kammler made it so. I disagree with you when you say that
Kammler had nothing to offer.

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today.

Its remotely possible that he got out through and became a
farmer in Argentina but doubtful IMHO

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

I think if Kammler's war diary could be found it would answer alot of interesting questions.

Assuming he kept one.

According to historian Prof Gerald Flemming (whom I have spoken to
several times regarding this issue) Flemming was told in the 1970s by
Czech authorities that General Kammler surrendered his war diary to
American soldiers on the road to Pilsen during the evacuation of
Prague in May 1945. When Flemming requested access to the diary,
however, he was refused and the authorities quickly changed their
story regarding the whereabouts of the Kammler's war diary.
Intriguing!

Andy

"Andy Simmons" wrote in message
m...
No, he really had nothing to offer, the Americans had Dornberger,
Von Braun etc. while Heisenberg and co were safely under wraps
at Farm Hall were it became apparent they were knew less than
the western allies had in 1942.

Was it not Kammler, however, who handed the rocket scientists over to
the Americans.

No. At the end of January 1945 the scientists were still based at Peenemunde
but with the Russians getting close Kammler ordered the evacuation of the
base.



on the 3rd April 1945 Kammler ordered the scientists to be taken
from Peenemunde to a base in the Bavarian alps because US tanks
were suposedly reportedly this you may recall was at the
time expected to be the last redoubt until Hitler changed
his mind and decided to stay in Berlin

General Dornberger quickly moved his headquarters to the village
of Bad Sachsa; Dr. Kurt Debus, director of the test stands, took
his team to Cuxhaven on the North Sea; and during February the
entire organization moved with its documents and equipment to
the cotton-mill town of Bleicherode, twelve miles from Nordhausen.

The report of American tanks in the vicinty prompetd Kammler
to order that they be moved under armed guard to the
Bavarian redoubt. Von Braun joined Dornberger at Oberjoch near
the Adolf Hitler Pass where they kicked their heels for the next month
until the area was overun by the US 44th division.

Far from surrendering them to the Americans at Nordhausen the
Kammler had them shipped to Bavaria where it was believed the
Nazis were planning to make their last stand.

I know Kammler was not physically present but it was
him who disobeyed Himmler's orders to "give each scientist a rifle and
send them to the Eastern front". From the book 'The Rocket Team' it
was Kammler who ferried the scientists to safety aboard his private
train, which the scientists had nicknamed the 'Vengenace Express'.

Nope they were shipped under SS guard to Oberjoch where they
remained until captured by the US 44th Infantry division on 3rd May
By then nobody had seen Kammler for a month and it was reported that
he had been shot by his aide on April 7th.

Note that they were initially held there in a guarded barbed wire enclosure
until Von Braun persuaded the guards that they were vulnerable
to allied bombing and should be moved into the town of
Oberammergau

Note that Kammler ordered Von Braun and Dornberger to hide or destroy
all technical documents that would of use to the Americans, if he
had truly done a deal he would surely have taken charge of them.

Kammler also told Speer in April 1945 that he was going to make a deal
with the Americans, in which he would trade the rockets and other
developments for his freedom.

I rather doubt that for the simple reason that Speer was rather
busy trying to save the remnants of German industry and
infrastructure while Kammler was at Nordhausen until April 3
when it was evacuated , he was never seen again after April 7th.
In any even Kammler and Speer were scarcely on good terms.

Another book by Jean Michel 'DORA' ( a
survivor of the camp) claims that Kammler was secretly dealing with
the French Resistance towards the end of the war. Was it not Kammler
who also left the Harz mountain missile complex in fully functioning
order for the American handover, once again disobeying orders to
destroy the factories and their contents?

They scarcely had time to get before the Americans arrived
let alone destroy anything and far from handing over Von Braun
& co Kammler shipped them off to Bavaria

One could argue that the
"Americans only had Dornberger, Von Braun and the rockets etc" only
because Kammler made it so. I disagree with you when you say that
Kammler had nothing to offer.


This would seem to contradict the written testimony of Speer,
Dornberger, Von braun etc

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today.


Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened.

Its remotely possible that he got out through and became a
farmer in Argentina but doubtful IMHO

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.


And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.


I think if Kammler's war diary could be found it would answer alot of
interesting questions.

Assuming he kept one.

According to historian Prof Gerald Flemming (whom I have spoken to
several times regarding this issue) Flemming was told in the 1970s by
Czech authorities that General Kammler surrendered his war diary to
American soldiers on the road to Pilsen during the evacuation of
Prague in May 1945. When Flemming requested access to the diary,
however, he was refused and the authorities quickly changed their
story regarding the whereabouts of the Kammler's war diary.
Intriguing!


So thats at least 3 contradictory anecdotes you've heard, rumors are
like that I'm afraid.

Keith

By then nobody had seen Kammler for a month and it was reported that
he had been shot by his aide on April 7th.

Just another rumour, marvellous aren't they those war time
rumours!......

Official documentation clearly shows that Kammler was still issuing
orders in late April 1945, his last telegram on April 17th refused
Himmler access to a Junkers truck (which several authors have
interpreted as being the JU390, a plane suitable for long haul non
stop cargo flight). Incidently, one of the last photographs of the
JU390 was of it being loaded with cargo on an air field in
Czechoslovakia). After the war the JU390 was never found. Further
historical documents tell us that on 22nd April 1945 Kammler agreed to
a request of Gallands to relocate ME 262 jets to the vacinity of
Prague. Galland recorded his last kill on April 26th, when flying a
Me-262 he shot down a B-26 Marauder before being crash landing after
being shot up by a P-47 Thunderbolt piloted by Lt. Jim Finnegan of the
U.S. 50th Fighter Group.

As for the elusive General Kammler, no less than six different
accounts (each with a sworn witness statement) exist describing the
death, suicide/heroric death charge of the General. James Lucas' 'Last
Days of the Reich' even gives another sworn statement (a detailed
account of the evacuation of the German families trapped in Prague to
the American lines at Pilsen). This account clearly states that
Kammler was in Prague on May 7th.

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today

Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened

Not according to Kammler's late wife who spoke about it often to her
sons.
Again I disagree with you strongly when you say kammler had nothing to
trade.

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.

Documentary evidence from this German legal source, (these documents
have been confirmed as authentic by independent forensic examiners)
indicate that General Kammler was involved in an organised technology/
financial transfer out of Germany at the wars end. Meetings are
currently taking place with representatives from a number of Swiss
Banks to investiagte these documents further. These meetings were only
agreed to when bank account numbers and names were decoded from these
documents and presented to the banks by the German investigators.

Did Kammler do a deal? ......possibly we'll have to wait and see.

Andy

"Andy Simmons" wrote in message
om...
By then nobody had seen Kammler for a month and it was reported that
he had been shot by his aide on April 7th.

Just another rumour, marvellous aren't they those war time
rumours!......

Official documentation clearly shows that Kammler was still issuing
orders in late April 1945, his last telegram on April 17th refused
Himmler access to a Junkers truck (which several authors have
interpreted as being the JU390, a plane suitable for long haul non
stop cargo flight).

Cite please, we know that Himmler was meeting with
Count Bernadotte in Lubeck on April 24


Incidently, one of the last photographs of the
JU390 was of it being loaded with cargo on an air field in
Czechoslovakia). After the war the JU390 was never found. Further
historical documents tell us that on 22nd April 1945 Kammler agreed to
a request of Gallands to relocate ME 262 jets to the vacinity of
Prague.

Nonsense. Galland was appointed commander of JV-44 in Febuary 1945
It was based at Brandenburg Briest until 3rd April 1945 and then relocated
to Munich Riem in Bavaria were it stayed until 29 April 1945

Galland recorded his last kill on April 26th, when flying a
Me-262 he shot down a B-26 Marauder before being crash landing after
being shot up by a P-47 Thunderbolt piloted by Lt. Jim Finnegan of the
U.S. 50th Fighter Group.


This was however NOT near Prague it was in fact over Neuberg
in Bavaria

As for the elusive General Kammler, no less than six different
accounts (each with a sworn witness statement) exist describing the
death, suicide/heroric death charge of the General. James Lucas' 'Last
Days of the Reich' even gives another sworn statement (a detailed
account of the evacuation of the German families trapped in Prague to
the American lines at Pilsen). This account clearly states that
Kammler was in Prague on May 7th.


Which would have made it somewhat difficult for him to escape to the
Americans since the Soviets took that city

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today

Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened

Not according to Kammler's late wife who spoke about it often to her
sons.
Again I disagree with you strongly when you say kammler had nothing to
trade.


Thats your right of course but since the Americans had the
technicians , scientists and documents ....

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.

Documentary evidence from this German legal source, (these documents
have been confirmed as authentic by independent forensic examiners)

As were the Hitler diaries as I recall

indicate that General Kammler was involved in an organised technology/
financial transfer out of Germany at the wars end. Meetings are
currently taking place with representatives from a number of Swiss
Banks to investiagte these documents further. These meetings were only
agreed to when bank account numbers and names were decoded from these
documents and presented to the banks by the German investigators.


SS financial transfers to Swiss banks are scarcely news

Did Kammler do a deal? ......possibly we'll have to wait and see.


Keith

Official documentation clearly shows that Kammler was still issuing
orders in late April 1945, his last telegram on April 17th refused
Himmler access to a Junkers truck (which several authors have
interpreted as being the JU390, a plane suitable for long haul non
stop cargo flight).

Cite please, we know that Himmler was meeting with Count Bernadotte in Lubeck on April 24

Certainly, as Cited in: Speer, Albert, SLAVE STATE, THE., London,
Weidenfeld & Nicolson., 1981. National Archive location/citation of
these documents can be provided.

JU390 was of it being loaded with cargo on an air field in
Czechoslovakia). After the war the JU390 was never found. Further
historical documents tell us that on 22nd April 1945 Kammler agreed to
a request of Gallands to relocate ME 262 jets to the vacinity of
Prague.

Nonsense. Galland was appointed commander of JV-44 in Febuary 1945
It was based at Brandenburg Briest until 3rd April 1945 and then relocated
to Munich Riem in Bavaria were it stayed until 29 April 1945

You've missed my point entirely its not important WHERE JV-44 was
relocated to but WHO gave the order and WHEN i.e it was Kammler who
sanctioned Galland's request a responsibility Kammler had assumed on
27th March when he became The Führer's Plenipotentiary for Jet Planes.

This was however NOT near Prague it was in fact over Neuberg in Bavaria

Others might argue that Prague is well within the sphere of operation
of the an ME 262 which could travel well over 1,000 miles on a single
fuel load. Confirmation of Kammler's direct sanctioning of this order
is contained within documents I have obtained from the KZ GUSEN
MEMORIAL COMMITTEE (ST. GEORGEN/GUSEN, Austria - private
communication).

As for the elusive General Kammler, no less than six different
accounts (each with a sworn witness statement) exist describing the
death, suicide/heroric death charge of the General. James Lucas' 'Last
Days of the Reich' even gives another sworn statement (a detailed
account of the evacuation of the German families trapped in Prague to
the American lines at Pilsen). This account clearly states that
Kammler was in Prague on May 7th.


Which would have made it somewhat difficult for him to escape to the
Americans since the Soviets took that city

Absolute nonsense, General Toussaint negotiated with Czech Partisans
at the Revolutionary Czech National Council Head Quarters in Prague
for four hours to secure an armistice to allow German soldiers and
civilians to evacuate the city. Shortly after 4pm on May 8th General
Toussaint was granted his armistice. The alternative was that the SS
‘Der Führer' Regiment would make Pregaue one of the last battlegrounds
of the European theatre and wipe the city of the face of the planet.

Shortly after nine o'clock on the morning of May 9th a column of one
thousand vehicles, overloaded with civilians, military administrative
staff, the wounded and soldiers of ‘Der Führer' reached its final
destination and surrendered to the US 2nd Infantry Division at
Rokiczany.

My point here being in this confusion it would have been very easy for
Kammler to slip through. Oh and incidently where did General Toussaint
end up after WWII, why working for the Russians of course.

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today

Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened

Not according to Kammler's late wife who spoke about it often to her
sons. Again I disagree with you strongly when you say kammler had nothing to trade.

Thats your right of course but since the Americans had the
technicians , scientists and documents ....

And once again, now why exactly was that?....because Kammler made it
possible, this was his bargaining chip along with his other
'developments' which he spoke to Speer about!

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.

Documentary evidence from this German legal source, (these documents
have been confirmed as authentic by independent forensic examiners)

As were the Hitler diaries as I recall

Which is exactly why the forensic examination and decoding of these
documents has been so thorough. As I am sure you will appreciate
however, these documents differ significantly from the Hitler diaries
in one very important way. They contain information which enables
their authenticity to be verified 100% i.e the coded bank accounts and
names of signatories are real in that these bank accounts/name decode
to show that they really DO EXIST. The banks in question have
CONFIRMED this.

indicate that General Kammler was involved in an organised technology/
financial transfer out of Germany at the wars end. Meetings are
currently taking place with representatives from a number of Swiss
Banks to investiagte these documents further. These meetings were only
agreed to when bank account numbers and names were decoded from these
documents and presented to the banks by the German investigators.

SS financial transfers to Swiss banks are scarcely news

Again you are missing the point entirely, these newly discovered bank
accounts were held by senior Nazi officials. This have NEVER been
confirmed before. Names are given with dates of transfers etc etc.
Even the Bergier Commission failed to identify these bank accounts as
the dates and movements within these accounts fell outside their
remit. On the contrary this is BIG NEWS!

Andy

"Andy Simmons" wrote in message
om...
Official documentation clearly shows that Kammler was still issuing
orders in late April 1945, his last telegram on April 17th refused
Himmler access to a Junkers truck (which several authors have
interpreted as being the JU390, a plane suitable for long haul non
stop cargo flight).

Cite please, we know that Himmler was meeting with Count Bernadotte in
Lubeck on April 24

Certainly, as Cited in: Speer, Albert, SLAVE STATE, THE., London,
Weidenfeld & Nicolson., 1981. National Archive location/citation of
these documents can be provided.

JU390 was of it being loaded with cargo on an air field in
Czechoslovakia). After the war the JU390 was never found. Further
historical documents tell us that on 22nd April 1945 Kammler agreed to
a request of Gallands to relocate ME 262 jets to the vacinity of
Prague.

Nonsense. Galland was appointed commander of JV-44 in Febuary 1945
It was based at Brandenburg Briest until 3rd April 1945 and then
relocated
to Munich Riem in Bavaria were it stayed until 29 April 1945

You've missed my point entirely its not important WHERE JV-44 was
relocated to but WHO gave the order and WHEN i.e it was Kammler who
sanctioned Galland's request a responsibility Kammler had assumed on
27th March when he became The Führer's Plenipotentiary for Jet Planes

Trouble is there is no record in the documents surviving of JV-44 that
mention any such request , JV-44 in fact moved to Bavaria to protect
the plants that built the jet fighters


This was however NOT near Prague it was in fact over Neuberg in Bavaria

Others might argue that Prague is well within the sphere of operation
of the an ME 262 which could travel well over 1,000 miles on a single
fuel load.

P-51's could fly to the heart of Germany and back, that doesnt mean that whe
n they
were deployed at Duxford they were based near Berlin.

Munich is not near Prague , its 240 miles away.

Confirmation of Kammler's direct sanctioning of this order
is contained within documents I have obtained from the KZ GUSEN
MEMORIAL COMMITTEE (ST. GEORGEN/GUSEN, Austria - private
communication).


Ah Sekrit documents

Strange that Galland seems not to have heard of it


As for the elusive General Kammler, no less than six different
accounts (each with a sworn witness statement) exist describing the
death, suicide/heroric death charge of the General. James Lucas' 'Last
Days of the Reich' even gives another sworn statement (a detailed
account of the evacuation of the German families trapped in Prague to
the American lines at Pilsen). This account clearly states that
Kammler was in Prague on May 7th.


Which would have made it somewhat difficult for him to escape to the
Americans since the Soviets took that city

Absolute nonsense, General Toussaint negotiated with Czech Partisans
at the Revolutionary Czech National Council Head Quarters in Prague
for four hours to secure an armistice to allow German soldiers and
civilians to evacuate the city. Shortly after 4pm on May 8th General
Toussaint was granted his armistice. The alternative was that the SS
'Der Führer' Regiment would make Pregaue one of the last battlegrounds
of the European theatre and wipe the city of the face of the planet.

Shortly after nine o'clock on the morning of May 9th a column of one
thousand vehicles, overloaded with civilians, military administrative
staff, the wounded and soldiers of 'Der Führer' reached its final
destination and surrendered to the US 2nd Infantry Division at
Rokiczany.


Having had no opportunity to 'slip away'

My point here being in this confusion it would have been very easy for
Kammler to slip through.

To where exactly ?

He had four choices , kill himself, surrender to the Russians,
surrender to the Americans, die at the hands of the Czechs
who would have LOVED to get hold of him.

Oh and incidently where did General Toussaint
end up after WWII, why working for the Russians of course.


Rudolf Toussaint was sentenced for life for war crimes committed on occupied
Czech territory during the Second World War, but was released in 1961,
and allowed to move to Germany, having agreed to cooperate with
the Czech secret police.

This isnt quite the same as working for the Russians

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This
is
certainly not something that you will read about in any
conventional
history books today

Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened

Not according to Kammler's late wife who spoke about it often to her
sons. Again I disagree with you strongly when you say kammler had
nothing to trade.

Thats your right of course but since the Americans had the
technicians , scientists and documents ....

And once again, now why exactly was that?....because Kammler made it
possible, this was his bargaining chip along with his other
'developments' which he spoke to Speer about!


Sorry but this is NOT the case. The documents were hidden
Von Braun's aide, Dieter Huzel, who buried them in an abandoned mine
shaft in the mountains when he learned the scientists and technicians were
to be shipped to Bavaria.

Kammler had the ideal opportunity to do a deal with the Americans
in early April as they approached Mittelwerk, instead he ordered the
scientists to be moved to Bavaria where it was expected the Nazis
would make a last stand. This is also why the Me-262 experten
were located in this area.


IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a
German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war
and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.

Documentary evidence from this German legal source, (these documents
have been confirmed as authentic by independent forensic examiners)

As were the Hitler diaries as I recall

Which is exactly why the forensic examination and decoding of these
documents has been so thorough. As I am sure you will appreciate
however, these documents differ significantly from the Hitler diaries
in one very important way. They contain information which enables
their authenticity to be verified 100% i.e the coded bank accounts and
names of signatories are real in that these bank accounts/name decode
to show that they really DO EXIST. The banks in question have
CONFIRMED this.

indicate that General Kammler was involved in an organised technology/
financial transfer out of Germany at the wars end. Meetings are
currently taking place with representatives from a number of Swiss
Banks to investiagte these documents further. These meetings were only
agreed to when bank account numbers and names were decoded from these
documents and presented to the banks by the German investigators.

SS financial transfers to Swiss banks are scarcely news

Again you are missing the point entirely, these newly discovered bank
accounts were held by senior Nazi officials. This have NEVER been
confirmed before. Names are given with dates of transfers etc etc.
Even the Bergier Commission failed to identify these bank accounts as
the dates and movements within these accounts fell outside their
remit. On the contrary this is BIG NEWS!


Whatever , unless they sure Kammler making withdrawals
after the war they in no way show he survived, if they dont
it seems to add to the evidence that he was indeed killed.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Andy Simmons" wrote in message
om...
Official documentation clearly shows that Kammler was still issuing
orders in late April 1945, his last telegram on April 17th refused
Himmler access to a Junkers truck (which several authors have
interpreted as being the JU390, a plane suitable for long haul non
stop cargo flight).

Cite please, we know that Himmler was meeting with Count Bernadotte in
Lubeck on April 24

Certainly, as Cited in: Speer, Albert, SLAVE STATE, THE., London,
Weidenfeld & Nicolson., 1981. National Archive location/citation of
these documents can be provided.

For your records : Speers referance to this document is given as (From
general Kammler of April 17th, 1945 to Himmler (SS Command
Headquearters, Office II, Organisation I (Ba NS 19/old 1678). Berlin.


JU390 was of it being loaded with cargo on an air field in
Czechoslovakia). After the war the JU390 was never found. Further
historical documents tell us that on 22nd April 1945 Kammler agreed to
a request of Gallands to relocate ME 262 jets to the vacinity of
Prague.

Nonsense. Galland was appointed commander of JV-44 in Febuary 1945
It was based at Brandenburg Briest until 3rd April 1945 and then
relocated
to Munich Riem in Bavaria were it stayed until 29 April 1945

You've missed my point entirely its not important WHERE JV-44 was
relocated to but WHO gave the order and WHEN i.e it was Kammler who
sanctioned Galland's request a responsibility Kammler had assumed on
27th March when he became The Führer's Plenipotentiary for Jet Planes

Trouble is there is no record in the documents surviving of JV-44 that
mention any such request , JV-44 in fact moved to Bavaria to protect
the plants that built the jet fighters


This was however NOT near Prague it was in fact over Neuberg in Bavaria

Others might argue that Prague is well within the sphere of operation
of the an ME 262 which could travel well over 1,000 miles on a single
fuel load.

P-51's could fly to the heart of Germany and back, that doesnt mean that when they were deployed at Duxford they were based near Berlin.

Munich is not near Prague , its 240 miles away.

Very close by WWII standards in particular in April 1945!


Confirmation of Kammler's direct sanctioning of this order
is contained within documents I have obtained from the KZ GUSEN
MEMORIAL COMMITTEE (ST. GEORGEN/GUSEN, Austria - private
communication).

Ah Sekrit documents

Strange that Galland seems not to have heard of it

Even stranger as the account was written by a Luftwaffe Major
Hans-Ekkehard Bob. Really not so 'sekrit' if you do the research.


As for the elusive General Kammler, no less than six different
accounts (each with a sworn witness statement) exist describing the
death, suicide/heroric death charge of the General. James Lucas' 'Last
Days of the Reich' even gives another sworn statement (a detailed
account of the evacuation of the German families trapped in Prague to
the American lines at Pilsen). This account clearly states that
Kammler was in Prague on May 7th.


Which would have made it somewhat difficult for him to escape to the
Americans since the Soviets took that city

Absolute nonsense, General Toussaint negotiated with Czech Partisans
at the Revolutionary Czech National Council Head Quarters in Prague
for four hours to secure an armistice to allow German soldiers and
civilians to evacuate the city. Shortly after 4pm on May 8th General
Toussaint was granted his armistice. The alternative was that the SS
'Der Führer' Regiment would make Pregaue one of the last battlegrounds
of the European theatre and wipe the city of the face of the planet.

Shortly after nine o'clock on the morning of May 9th a column of one
thousand vehicles, overloaded with civilians, military administrative
staff, the wounded and soldiers of 'Der Führer' reached its final
destination and surrendered to the US 2nd Infantry Division at
Rokiczany.


Having had no opportunity to 'slip away'

My point here being in this confusion it would have been very easy for
Kammler to slip through.

To where exactly ?

He had four choices , kill himself, surrender to the Russians,
surrender to the Americans, die at the hands of the Czechs
who would have LOVED to get hold of him.

Oh and incidently where did General Toussaint
end up after WWII, why working for the Russians of course.


Rudolf Toussaint was sentenced for life for war crimes committed on occupied
Czech territory during the Second World War, but was released in 1961,
and allowed to move to Germany, having agreed to cooperate with
the Czech secret police.

This isnt quite the same as working for the Russians

What exactly is/was the difference??? Is that not the same one
communist run secret police direct rule from Russia establishment we
are talking about here? Try getting that one to any self respecting
Czech citizen today!

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This
is
certainly not something that you will read about in any
conventional
history books today

Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened

Not according to Kammler's late wife who spoke about it often to her
sons. Again I disagree with you strongly when you say kammler had
nothing to trade.

Thats your right of course but since the Americans had the
technicians , scientists and documents ....

And once again, now why exactly was that?....because Kammler made it
possible, this was his bargaining chip along with his other
'developments' which he spoke to Speer about!

Sorry but this is NOT the case. The documents were hidden
Von Braun's aide, Dieter Huzel, who buried them in an abandoned mine
shaft in the mountains when he learned the scientists and technicians were
to be shipped to Bavaria.

Kammler had the ideal opportunity to do a deal with the Americans
in early April as they approached Mittelwerk, instead he ordered the
scientists to be moved to Bavaria where it was expected the Nazis
would make a last stand. This is also why the Me-262 experten
were located in this area.

Kammler was an evil ******* but a clever one, it took the scientists 6
long days to reach 'safety', a week was a long time in April 1945
especially when every minute counted. There never was going to be any
last great stand. Even the smart Nazis knew that much which is why
after delivering the scientists and the rockets to the Americans,
Kammler dropped out of sight. Kammler knew that the scientists work
was done. They could contribute no more to the war effort, their only
value was as part of an exchange. If Kammler hadn't of thought so he
would have obeyed Hitler's orders and sent them to die on the Russain
front!

Even von Braun stated that he knew Kammler was holding them as a
bargaining chip, nothing more.

You claim that Kammler had nothing to trade.........

I have accounts from Luftwaffe pilots stating that during his time of
abscence in April/ May 1945 Kammler was active between Thuringia and
Prague. This is supported by documentation, which I have compiled from
fellow researchers and the National Archives. There were other weapons
under development far beyond those of the V2 which Kammler could
trade. For example, all documents pertaining to the SS 'Research and
Development' - 'Think Tank' at the Skoda Werks in Czechoslovakia have
never been disclosed nor have Kammler's activities in the Jonas Valley
SS Training Grounds of Central Germany. Kammler was active in both,
according to Dr Wilhelm Voss (Head of Waffen Union at Skoda) Kammler
controlled the 'Research and Development' - 'Think Tank' there where
second generation weapons were being developed. Voss describes
research activities there in relation to laser developments and
nuclear propulsion systems for aircraft. It was also under Kammler's
direction that massive subterranean complexes were constructed in the
Jonas Valley, including the Fuhrer's last headquarters and underground
weapons factories.

Kammler was undoubtedly a complex and politcally astute character. I
think it is extremely naive of anyone to under estimate the
shrewdness of this individual. His ruthlessness has been described as
abnormal "even by SS standards" as it was Kammler who was instrumantal
in the take over of the armaments industry by the SS. Speer recognised
Kammler's talents and feared him for them and recognised that Kammler
was being 'groomed as his replacement'. At the end of the war Kammler
was one of the most powerful men in the Nazi hierarchy, accounts from
Speer and the Goebbels and Bormanns Diaries/Letters testify to that.


IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a
German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war
and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.

Documentary evidence from this German legal source, (these documents
have been confirmed as authentic by independent forensic examiners)

As were the Hitler diaries as I recall

Which is exactly why the forensic examination and decoding of these
documents has been so thorough. As I am sure you will appreciate
however, these documents differ significantly from the Hitler diaries
in one very important way. They contain information which enables
their authenticity to be verified 100% i.e the coded bank accounts and
names of signatories are real in that these bank accounts/name decode
to show that they really DO EXIST. The banks in question have
CONFIRMED this.

indicate that General Kammler was involved in an organised technology/
financial transfer out of Germany at the wars end. Meetings are
currently taking place with representatives from a number of Swiss
Banks to investiagte these documents further. These meetings were only
agreed to when bank account numbers and names were decoded from these
documents and presented to the banks by the German investigators.

SS financial transfers to Swiss banks are scarcely news

Again you are missing the point entirely, these newly discovered bank
accounts were held by senior Nazi officials. This have NEVER been
confirmed before. Names are given with dates of transfers etc etc.
Even the Bergier Commission failed to identify these bank accounts as
the dates and movements within these accounts fell outside their
remit. On the contrary this is BIG NEWS!

Whatever , unless they sure Kammler making withdrawals
after the war they in no way show he survived, if they dont
it seems to add to the evidence that he was indeed killed.

Whatever??? I don't think for one moment that the hundreds of
thousands of innocent victims of the SS regime (both Allied soldiers
and civilian) and those who suffered personally under Kammler's
demonic rule in his subterranean death factories would take so kindly
to such a dismissive comment when presented with evidence that this
monster may have survived the war.

Andy