When is too many at a glider meet

On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 12:15:31 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, June 25, 2015 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:15:20 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
All that I will say to all of these "feel good" responses is that I hope to God that I am wrong and this event will be perfectly safe.

Tom

Hi Tom,
We addressed your original concern of NOT having 80+ gliders coming to the event - more like around 65. However,you still seem concerned. What other aspects of this event are you concerned about safety that we can review and address?

As for Glen - thanks for your kind words.

Bruno - B4

My original question was how many gliders is too many at a meet. This was a simple question. For my efforts I am vilified as a troll. So be it. I remember the 1984 15 Meter Nationals held at Ephrata, WA where they increased the normal limit of contestants from 40 to 65. There were two mid-airs at the contest, one of which resulted in a fatality.

I guess I was naive to expect a respectful, reasoned discussion of the subject. My bad.

Tom

The Ephrata contest you refer to started with 69 gliders, featured *three* mid-airs, one fatality, some very scary flying in a badly damaged glider after a mid-air, a take off with a disconnected elevator (pilot okay, ship wrecked hard) and launches that were barely clear of the runway end on some days. And that's just the stuff that got written up in the magazine (back in the day when we took time to write... and read... long articles in print magazines). Soaring Sept. 1984 if anyone wants to look it up.

Reading that article (again) illustrates just how far the contest community has come, safety wise.

I agree, you asked a simple question, you got your answer (you misunderstood "80"). You were not vilified. The heat was generated by a certain other less gracious fellow who got pretty much the response he deserved.

Have fun at Nephi, everyone. Fly sharp, fly safe.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Friday, June 26, 2015 at 8:04:28 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
You were not vilified.

I guess I should amend that. You were, but I think you were collateral damage so to speak.

best,
Evan

Earlier, "Glen" wrote (full post with headers at bottom):

Last year about 10% went home with damaged gliders, from
what I heard not much organization, too busy going to the
bank.

In no particular order:

* More likely everyone who opened their trailer went home with a "damaged" glider. Scratches and dings are a fact of life.

* There is no sector of soaring with much "going to the bank." The majority of our sport is subsidized by near-symbiotic relationships.

* Care to tell us who you "heard" this from?

Thanks, Bob K.



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Subject: When is too many at a glider meet
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On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:02:06 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
I recently learned that Bruno has increased the number of gliders for the=
Nephi, UT event to 80. That's right, eight zero. IMHO, that is too many, e=
ven if FLARM is mandated. There will be pilots there from virtually zero cr=
oss country time to seasoned racers. They may be lulled into a false sense =
of complacency until a storm forces the entire field back to the airport at=
once, creating chaos. I get the bad feeling that this number will keep inc=
reasing - or stay the same - until there is a fatality.

Last year about 10% went home with damaged gliders, from what I heard not m=
uch organization, too busy going to the bank.

At 18:30 24 June 2015, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 11:40:19 UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
Bruno,=20
=20
You've got a ways to go to keep up with the Joneses (or more
appropriatel=
y the Juhaszes)... there are over 110 registered for the European Gliding
C=
hampionships in Hungary next month. That's right - one one zero.
Slacke=
r. =20
=20
Erik Mann (P3)
=20
p.s. Not to respond to troll bait, but there are places where 40
gliders
=
is plenty and places where 100 wouldn't be out of the question. And I
ce=
rtainly can't think of any technical sites (mountains, ridges, forests,
etc=
..) where there isn't some level of risk. Anyone that isn't aware of
that
=
is probably not ready to go to this sort of encampment or to leave the
hous=
e unsupervised for that matter. =20
=20
=20
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:13:27 AM UTC-4,
wrot=
e:
On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 10:02:06 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
I recently learned that Bruno has increased the number of gliders
for=
the Nephi, UT event to 80. That's right, eight zero. IMHO, that is too
man=
y, even if FLARM is mandated. There will be pilots there from virtually
zer=
o cross country time to seasoned racers. They may be lulled into a false
se=
nse of complacency until a storm forces the entire field back to the
airpor=
t at once, creating chaos. I get the bad feeling that this number will
keep=
increasing - or stay the same - until there is a fatality.
=20
Actually what you heard is not correct. There will be 96 gliders at
ou=
r event. I was hoping for 100 but we couldn't quite make it. Darn! =20
=20
All kidding aside, sorry but you heard wrong. We are not sure of the
fi=
nal numbers due to many last minute drop outs, but it will be somewhere
in
=
the 60's with 6 tow planes. Last year we had 68 gliders attend and it
work=
ed out well, both at the airport and in the air. The largest gaggle seen
l=
ast year only had around a half dozen gliders in it. Utah air and
thermals
=
offer lots of room.
=20
Bruno - B4

Erik, Erik, Erik how can you make this comparison? In Nephi we gather to
f=
ly with friends, attempt personal bests, fly the Great Basin, experience
8-=
10 knot thermals, observe National Parks and monuments from air, stay
airbo=
rne for 4, 6, 8+ hours, attempt state records, find cloud streets or lift
l=
ines that run for 10's of miles, make new friends, experience rural UT
and
=
many other great experience soaring is known for.

Of course there are 110+ pilots at the European Championships, who would
no=
t want to attend when you have sponsors paying for everything, free use
of
=
gliders provided by manufacturers, accommodations at 4star hotels, air
cond=
itioned facilities for pilot meetings and lounges, ground crews provided
by=
the organizers that do everything for the pilots, catered meals, free
booz=
e and much much more. Plus you have a set rules to follow that the US
folk=
s do not understand.=20

No comparison at all

Jeeze do they sponsor gliding now - cool I can finally quit my day job!!!

On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 5:48:36 AM UTC-6, glen wrote:
Glen,
I was there last year and can be counted in as a "damaged glider" due to a small rock chip on the underside of my fuselage from landing on the grass strip. The only damaged gliders I saw were caused at the airport by non attentive pilots/crews going down the taxi and hitting landing lights. Plus there was one damaged by running off the end of a 6,000' runway through the approach lights. Yes a tow-plane did experience an engine fatality on the ground. All the above were due to individual mistakes not the number of gliders...
Tom
One Idah


di age On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:02:06 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
I recently learned that Bruno has increased the number of gliders for the Nephi, UT event to 80. That's right, eight zero. IMHO, that is too many, even if FLARM is mandated. There will be pilots there from virtually zero cross country time to seasoned racers. They may be lulled into a false sense of complacency until a storm forces the entire field back to the airport at once, creating chaos. I get the bad feeling that this number will keep increasing - or stay the same - until there is a fatality.

Last year about 10% went home with damaged gliders, from what I heard not much organization, too busy going to the bank.

Tom,

I'd go back and reread your original post. I don't think it was a "simple question." It was a thinly veiled criticism of the Nephi XC/OLC camp and the organizers. I'm all for questions that create meaningful dialogue related to safety. In fact, I think it's one of the best things that R.A.S. can contribute (realizing that one has to sift through a lot of slag to find nuggets of useful information).

For your consideration, here's a light edit of your original "question".

As many of you know, the Nephi XC/OLC camp is slated to kick off in a few days. As I understand it, the camp is expecting in excess of 60 participants and maybe as many as 80. That's a lot of gliders in one place. So, how many gliders is too many? What needs to be done to ensure safety in such a setting? I'd be interested in thoughts from people who have experience with large soaring events. What are considerations for safety on course? In the pattern? On the ground? Thanks for any and all thoughtful contributions.

Sincerely,
Erik Mann (P3)

Quote :-
Of course there are 110+ pilots at the European Championships, who
would =
not want to attend when you have sponsors paying for everything, free
use o=
f gliders provided by manufacturers, accommodations at 4star hotels,
air co=
nditioned facilities for pilot meetings and lounges, ground crews
provided =
by the organizers that do everything for the pilots, catered meals, free
bo=
oze and much much more. Plus you have a set rules to follow that the
US fo=
lks do not understand.

I cant speak for other nations but the uk pilots:-
Have very limited sponsorship, typically this pays for the ferry and fuel
to get to the event.
Use their own gliders.
Stay in their own tents.
Meeting rooms might be provided by the organisers to all competitors.
Provide their own crews.
Buy food and refreshment like anyone else.
you read the rules like any other competitor.

Incidentally our club has a typical grid launch at the weekends of 40 -
80 gliders. plus winch launches plus club aerotows. The 18m Nationals
and Laham regionals will have a combined entry of about 90 gliders.

On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 8:02:04 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
Tom,

I'd go back and reread your original post. I don't think it was a "simple question." It was a thinly veiled criticism of the Nephi XC/OLC camp and the organizers. I'm all for questions that create meaningful dialogue related to safety. In fact, I think it's one of the best things that R.A.S. can contribute (realizing that one has to sift through a lot of slag to find nuggets of useful information).

For your consideration, here's a light edit of your original "question".

As many of you know, the Nephi XC/OLC camp is slated to kick off in a few days. As I understand it, the camp is expecting in excess of 60 participants and maybe as many as 80. That's a lot of gliders in one place. So, how many gliders is too many? What needs to be done to ensure safety in such a setting? I'd be interested in thoughts from people who have experience with large soaring events. What are considerations for safety on course? In the pattern? On the ground? Thanks for any and all thoughtful contributions.

Sincerely,
Erik Mann (P3)

Now that the event is over and no in-flight injuries occurred, I will respond to your criticisms of my question. You are abusive and aggressive when it comes to a subject in which you have a vested interest. This is classless and disruptive. You want to browbeat others into submitting to your personal whims and desires. You have nothing to add to the subject of safety of gliders and detract from the subject in general. This attitude is why people don't want to talk about safety.

Tom

P3 +1
2G -5

5Z

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 5:52:48 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, June 27, 2015 at 8:02:04 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
Tom,

I'd go back and reread your original post. I don't think it was a "simple question." It was a thinly veiled criticism of the Nephi XC/OLC camp and the organizers. I'm all for questions that create meaningful dialogue related to safety. In fact, I think it's one of the best things that R.A.S. can contribute (realizing that one has to sift through a lot of slag to find nuggets of useful information).

For your consideration, here's a light edit of your original "question"..

As many of you know, the Nephi XC/OLC camp is slated to kick off in a few days. As I understand it, the camp is expecting in excess of 60 participants and maybe as many as 80. That's a lot of gliders in one place. So, how many gliders is too many? What needs to be done to ensure safety in such a setting? I'd be interested in thoughts from people who have experience with large soaring events. What are considerations for safety on course? In the pattern? On the ground? Thanks for any and all thoughtful contributions.

Sincerely,
Erik Mann (P3)

Now that the event is over and no in-flight injuries occurred, I will respond to your criticisms of my question. You are abusive and aggressive when it comes to a subject in which you have a vested interest. This is classless and disruptive. You want to browbeat others into submitting to your personal whims and desires. You have nothing to add to the subject of safety of gliders and detract from the subject in general. This attitude is why people don't want to talk about safety.

Tom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ibWqDWGcBM

Outta here.