The battle for Arlington Airport begins?

"Paul Adriance" wrote in message
news
Hi Jay, here are some responses to your comments, thanks for taking your
time to read and post.


Paul,

Thank YOU for taking the time to help the newbie-pilot side of me better
understand the impact on GA that the current TSA/DoD/HS mindset is having.

Pile on the NASCAR / ISC issue and your specific plight becomes much more
clear.


Thanks again for responding Jay, it's a pleasure to hear that we have
possible aviation allies to help us here. I hope to hear back from you,


Please bear in mind that I am mearly a "worker bee" and low on the totem
pole, but perhaps I can find a way to pass along your message via the
friend, of a friend, of a friend pipeline.

I can't make any promises but if I get anything accomplished I will let you
know via this forum.

Kindest Regards,

Jay Beckman
Student Pilot - KCHD
4.5 Hrs ... Nowhere to go but up!

"Paul Adriance" wrote in message thlink.net...
I don't have
data to back any of this up right now, but during the intial salvos of this
conflict at an airport commision meeting tonight, someone mentioned an
airport in the Arizona area that is shut down almost 200 days a year due to
a large venue near it.

I live in Phoenix and this would be news to me. I don't know of any
large sports venue in AZ that even operates 200 days a year.
Currently, the TFRs over sporting events exclude aircraft taking off
and landing at nearby airports under ATC control.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Here is what I want to know: When NASCAR once again becomes a poorly
attended sport that is no longer in fashion, what are they going to do with
the facility? There are still tracks lying around from old race
organizations that are not exactly making money, and some of the ones that
are making money now were eyesores from the seventies to eighties that no
one wanted to own land near.

Maybe you should try to dig up some people that were around when having a
race track nearby was a bad thing. They could support your position.

When your losing, always spread FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt

"Dude" wrote in message
...
Here is what I want to know: When NASCAR once again becomes a poorly
attended sport that is no longer in fashion, what are they going to do
with
the facility? There are still tracks lying around from old race
organizations that are not exactly making money, and some of the ones that
are making money now were eyesores from the seventies to eighties that no
one wanted to own land near.

Maybe you should try to dig up some people that were around when having a
race track nearby was a bad thing. They could support your position.

When your losing, always spread FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt



Dude,

Specifically which tracks?

IMO, there are tracks that are no longer used by the series that originally
made them famous but it's primarilly because they chose to not keep up with
safety and facilities.

There probably are as many (or more) airports which have closed for the same
reasons (as well as developmental encroachment, ignorant neighbors and
myopic politicians (there, back OT...))

Do a little Google-ing on the flap between NASCAR and the Texas Motor
Speedway or any of the other (probably half dozen or so...) tracks that want
a NASCAR date.

NASCAR isn't going away any time soon.

But, unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything to our pilot friends in the
NW.

Jay

"Paul Adriance" wrote in message
link.net...
You know, maybe you should check a few things out before panicking.
NASCAR
likes airports and they like having their tracks close to an airport.

They like them because the TFR is a non issue for them, they are excempt.

Yes, there is the stadium TFR, but those TFRs allow traffic that are
landing
or departing from an airport. Boeing Field does not close when there is
a
game in Seattle. Neither does Daytona close during the race there.

To commercial traffic under ATC control, Arlington doesn't even have a
tower, and only has a localizer IFR approach. 90% of our traffic is GA
and
there are no regularly scheduled air transport operations that I'm aware
of.


During games Boeing Field is open to all traffic, not just commercial
traffic. The general stadium TFR notam does not specify commercial traffic,
nor does it specify that aircraft arriving at or departing from an airport
has to be under ATC control. All it says is that traffic has to be arriving
at or departing from the airport in order to go through the TFR. There are
no other requirements -- no flight plan, no ATC control, no commercial
requirement, nothing.

I am curious who told you otherwise.

nor does it specify that aircraft arriving at or departing from an airport
has to be under ATC control. All it says is that traffic has to be
arriving
at or departing from the airport in order to go through the TFR. There are
no other requirements -- no flight plan, no ATC control, no commercial
requirement, nothing.

I have truncated the first portion of a stadium notam below for your
benefit, but I have left the second section intact. In that section I see
an exemption for aircraft authorized by ATC using standard procedures but,
nowhere do I see anything about operations at an uncontrolled airport or
without ATC authorization.

This is the TSA and Homeland Security we're talking about, there is no
quarter given and even something in writing is meaningless... They have
ultimate power under the auspices of national security; any gurantee from
them only illustrates the naivete of the recipient.

If the stadium is allowed to exist without a fight, we have no recourse in
the future.

I've heard several stories on what goes on at Boeing Field, but that is
irrelevant, once the stadium exists we are at the mercy of "national
security", a pandoras box that can never be closed.

Paul

SPECIAL NOTICE....ONE HOUR BEFORE THE SCHEDULED TIME OF THE EVENT UNTIL
ONE HOUR AFTER THE END OF THE EVENT, ALL AIRCRAFT AND PARACHUTE OPERATIONS
ARE PROHIBITED AT AND BELOW 3,000 FEET AGL WITHIN A THREE NAUTICAL MILE
RADIUS OF ANY STADIUM HAVING A SEATING CAPACITY OF 30,000 OR MORE
PEOPLE....MAJOR MOTOR SPEEDWAY EVENT IS OCCURING....


SPECIAL NOTICE. (B FOR BROADCAST COVERAGE FOR ANY BROADCAST RIGHTS HOLDER,
(C FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY PURPOSES OF THE EVENT, STADIUM, OR OTHER VENUE.
THIS RESTRICTION DOES NOT APPLY TO; (A THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR
OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES INCLUDING AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING FROM
AN AIRPORT USING STANDARD AIR TRAFFIC PROCEDURES; (B DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE,
LAW ENFORCEMENT, OR AEROMEDICAL FLIGHT OPERATIONS THAT ARE IN CONTACT WITH
ATC. STADIUM SITE LOCATIONS AND INFORMATION REGARDING WAIVER APPLICATIONS IN
ACCORDANCE WITH SECTION 352 OF PUBLIC LAW 108-7 CAN BE OBTAINED FROM THE FAA
WEBSITE AT HTTP://WWW.FAA.GOV/ATS/ATA/WAIVER OR BY CALLING 571-227-1322. END
PART 2 OF 2 06 MAR 11:00 UNTIL UFN

C J Campbell wrote:
"Paul Adriance" wrote in message
link.net...

You know, maybe you should check a few things out before panicking.

NASCAR

likes airports and they like having their tracks close to an airport.

They like them because the TFR is a non issue for them, they are excempt.


Yes, there is the stadium TFR, but those TFRs allow traffic that are

landing

or departing from an airport. Boeing Field does not close when there is

a

game in Seattle. Neither does Daytona close during the race there.

To commercial traffic under ATC control, Arlington doesn't even have a
tower, and only has a localizer IFR approach. 90% of our traffic is GA

and

there are no regularly scheduled air transport operations that I'm aware

of.


During games Boeing Field is open to all traffic, not just commercial
traffic. The general stadium TFR notam does not specify commercial traffic,
nor does it specify that aircraft arriving at or departing from an airport
has to be under ATC control. All it says is that traffic has to be arriving
at or departing from the airport in order to go through the TFR. There are
no other requirements -- no flight plan, no ATC control, no commercial
requirement, nothing.

I am curious who told you otherwise.


It is going to work really great if they have a event scheduled at the same time
as the Arlington EAA flyin. This could be the end of one of the best flyins in
the country.

Jerry

"Paul Adriance" wrote in message
nk.net...


This is the TSA and Homeland Security we're talking about, there is no
quarter given and even something in writing is meaningless...

Well, I guess we all just should quit flying then. It is hopeless. All the
rules are meaningless. Even if the stadium is never built TSA will put a TFR
there because the stadium might have gone there.... We are doomed. Accept
it.

You know what I think? I think you sound like the same people who are trying
to close airports. At Tacoma Narrows, for example, people have been opposing
a much needed safety overrun for nearly 20 years, because they are convinced
that we are going to have 747s landing there every five minutes if it is
installed. Sound ridiculous? Well so does a lot of the exaggeration and
hysteria about this track.

All I am saying is, keep cool. Get the facts. Don't let panic and rumor
decide your actions for you. So far you have not found even one uncontrolled
airport that is closed by stadium TFRs. Let me know when you do find one.

I will have to depend on others to name the tracks, as there were none in my
neck of the woods. I believe the nineties real estate boom resulted in many
of the old unused tracks being torn up. after years of little or no use. I
could even be mistaken, but it seems that the race fanse were on tv whining
about the loss of many of the old tracks not long ago. Were they pulled up
in spite of making lots of moey for their areas? Doubt it.

There is definitely an upsurge in racing popularity, but don't be like a
government jackass and expect the trend not to change. NASCAR could be all
over with a few scandals, a gas shortage, or when people wise up and want to
watch cars turn in two directions. It wouldn't go away, but attendance
could drop drastically. NASCAR IS IN VOGUE. Fashions change.

Personally, I like watching the American LeMans if I am otherwise bored. I
am not against racing. I just recoil when the sports people get involved
with the politician people. They are always stealing together.

Another thing people in the neighborhood may be concerned about is the
noise. Those races are noisier than the noisiest airport, and not all the
races bring in lots of cash. The sheep won't like it, the gentleman farmers
won't like it, etc. Long term, its not that great a deal, but the
politicians live in the short term, and need resume stuffers.

The best thing I can say about a race track is that you can bulldoze it to
build an airport by buying a single piece of property. Then you can use it
for something useful.



"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
news:ihT3c.4563$Nj.2885@fed1read01...
"Dude" wrote in message
...
Here is what I want to know: When NASCAR once again becomes a poorly
attended sport that is no longer in fashion, what are they going to do
with
the facility? There are still tracks lying around from old race
organizations that are not exactly making money, and some of the ones
that
are making money now were eyesores from the seventies to eighties that
no
one wanted to own land near.

Maybe you should try to dig up some people that were around when having
a
race track nearby was a bad thing. They could support your position.

When your losing, always spread FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt



Dude,

Specifically which tracks?

IMO, there are tracks that are no longer used by the series that
originally
made them famous but it's primarilly because they chose to not keep up
with
safety and facilities.

There probably are as many (or more) airports which have closed for the
same
reasons (as well as developmental encroachment, ignorant neighbors and
myopic politicians (there, back OT...))

Do a little Google-ing on the flap between NASCAR and the Texas Motor
Speedway or any of the other (probably half dozen or so...) tracks that
want
a NASCAR date.

NASCAR isn't going away any time soon.

But, unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything to our pilot friends in the
NW.

Jay

Paul Adriance copied a fragment of a TFR NOTAM:

THIS RESTRICTION DOES NOT APPLY TO; (A THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR
OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES INCLUDING AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING FROM
AN AIRPORT USING STANDARD AIR TRAFFIC PROCEDURES;

Umm, if the "standard air traffic procedure" for landing or taking off at your
airport is to self-announce on CTAF and "see & avoid", then can't you continue
to do so?

Russell Kent