500 foot rule and pilot opinion poll

Fellow US pilots:

This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line, you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.

Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that awful situation,
5-7 miles out at MacCready 0 plus 50 feet. Or maybe minus 50 feet.
You're passing over the last good field, and the last chance to
properly evaluate a field, do a pattern, look for wires, etc. From
here on in, if you don't make it, it's straight in to whatever you
find. Common sense says "stop, look for a thermal, and land in this
good field." But the contest is on the line; 400 points and more call
you to try to pop it in over the fence. This is not fun. It's not
safe. And it's entirely a creation of the rules.

The proposal removes the agonizing points vs. life decision. If you
don't make it with a 500 foot margin, you don't get speed points. Make
your decisions based only on safety. If it's safer to squeak it in to
the airport, do so. If it's safer to land in the good field 5 miles
out, do that. Forget the race.

This proposal is tantamount to moving the airport up 500 feet. The
race is entirely unaffected. A race with the airport located 500 feet
above the surrounding terrain is just as valid, just as fun, and just
as challenging.

The rule is only suggested for regionals, and perhaps only sports
class. It will have to have substantial support from pilots before it
makes it to nationals.

For more details, including accident statistics, see my article "Safer
Finishes" in the October 2002 Soaring. It's also online at my website,

http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/john....rs/#For_glider

I will also keep updated versions of this message on the website – I'm
sure to hear more objections that I can answer in the FAQ

FAQ:

1. We should leave this to pilot judgment.

We'll never substitute for pilot judgment, and handling the Mc 0 + 50
feet situation will still take lots of judgment.

There is plenty of precedent for rules that remove from "pilot
judgment" decisions that pit safety vs. competitive advantage. We used
to leave gross weight to pilot judgment. Now we impose weight limits,
and drag scales around to contests. We used to leave the question
whether you can relight after a landout to pilot judgment. Now we ban
the practice. We ban cloud flying instruments. And so forth.

Making a low final glide is a maneuver that requires extensive
experience and judgment. While there is a good case that national
level pilots can be expected to have this judgment, this is not the
case for regionals, and especially sports-class regionals, which are
explicitly aimed at newer, less experienced pilots.

2. I love the low pass finish. Don't take all the fun away

This proposal does not eliminate the fun low pass. The actual finish
can still take place over a line, at the usual altitude.

Many pilots think they will end up too high for a proper low finish,
but that is a mistake. If you pass one mile out at 500 feet and 80
kts, you will pass the finish at 50 feet well below redline. It takes
more than 500 feet just to gain the extra speed. Try it – I have.

3. This will lead to unintended consequences that are even worse.

a) Pulling up over the line.

Several pilots complained that a 500 foot finish would lead to pilots
racing in at 200 feet and then popping over the line. Good point.
That's why the proposal is now that you must be over 500 feet for the
whole distance between mile 1 and mile 2. (It is treated like special
use airspace). Now the optimal thing to do is stay above 500 feet the
whole way.

b) Traffic problems.

Perhaps people thermaling at 400 feet just outside the line will
interefere with finishing traffic. Not likely, as this does not happen
now, and all we've done is move the whole business up 500 feet. But
moving from a circle to a donut will further separate finishers from
thermalers, as it eliminates finishers below 500 feet counting on
popping up at the last moment.

c) Heads-down

Experience with the current 500 foot finish in sports class has not
revealed a big heads-down problem. Set your GPS to finish over the
airport at 500 feet. That gives you a 150 foot or so margin over the
donut.

4. This isn't the number one problem.

It isn't. Off field landings and terrain impact are still the number
one problems. Crashes near the airport and from low energy finish are
in the US a distant third.

Sailplane safety does not consist of only attacking the number one
problem. You each problem as a solution comes. Midairs are not the
number one problem, yet we all wear parachutes and look around, and
avoiding midairs is a central concern of all rule making. Assembly
errors are not the number one problem, yet we all do checks and the
rules now require them. If we can improve the #99 problem, at no cost
to the validity or fun of the race, soaring gets a little bit safer.

5. OK, I see that a high finish is a good idea, but losing all speed
points seems awfully harsh. Can't we just tack on a 5 minute penalty
or something?

The key is not the finish, the key is how this looks 5 miles out when
the pilot is passing the last good field. The whole point is to remove
"but if I squeak it in, I'll get all those speed points" from the
mental calculation. The only way to do this is to give essentially the
same points for landing 5 miles out as for squeaking it in to the
airport.

6. Soaring needs a little danger. If you can't stand the heat, get out
of the kitchen.

Several pilots have forcefully stated this opinion. If you think that
physical danger and an occasional fatality are important to keep
soaring exiting, vote against this rule.


Disclaimer: All of this is entirely my own opinion and has no
connection with the rules committee.

John Cochrane (BB)

While I am not going to argue against higher finishes for certain classes, I
am going to make a strong argument against the 500-foot 2-mile donut.

I will preface my remarks by saying that I am not a hot-shot contest pilot,
but I enjoy flying in club contests and the occasional regional. I have
always been very conservative on my final glides, even when I'm not flying
over the notoriously unlandable terrain around my home field..

The 500-foot 2-mile donut was used at this year's Region 9, where I flew in
Sports class. I have to say that I found it harder to judge this finish
than any other. On every flight, I found myself doing mental arithmetic,
trying to figure out whether I was going to make the 500-foot limit, even
though my flight computer said I had the field made with my usual
conservative margins.

The problem is not the 500-foot limit, but the 2-mile donut. My flight
computer cannot computer the height required to make this type of finish. I
suspect many others can't either. The result is that the new rule puts
extra workload on the pilot during the busy final glide when he or she
should be concentrating on other things.

I found it to be a great distraction and did not give me any feeling of
improved safety.

Whatever the finish altitude is deemed to be safe, it should apply to the
standard finish gate. Finishing 2 miles out makes no sense to me and makes
the final glide more complex than it should be.

I should also add that, on a couple of days, after making the 2-mile finish
at Hobbs, I was now approachingt the field at a couple of hundred feet in
the opposite direction from standard and 15-m classes.

Sorry, I.m not convinced!

Mike

ASW 20 WA



"John Cochrane" wrote in message
om...
Fellow US pilots:

This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line, you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.

Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that awful situation,
5-7 miles out at MacCready 0 plus 50 feet. Or maybe minus 50 feet.
You're passing over the last good field, and the last chance to
properly evaluate a field, do a pattern, look for wires, etc. From
here on in, if you don't make it, it's straight in to whatever you
find. Common sense says "stop, look for a thermal, and land in this
good field." But the contest is on the line; 400 points and more call
you to try to pop it in over the fence. This is not fun. It's not
safe. And it's entirely a creation of the rules.

The proposal removes the agonizing points vs. life decision. If you
don't make it with a 500 foot margin, you don't get speed points. Make
your decisions based only on safety. If it's safer to squeak it in to
the airport, do so. If it's safer to land in the good field 5 miles
out, do that. Forget the race.

This proposal is tantamount to moving the airport up 500 feet. The
race is entirely unaffected. A race with the airport located 500 feet
above the surrounding terrain is just as valid, just as fun, and just
as challenging.

The rule is only suggested for regionals, and perhaps only sports
class. It will have to have substantial support from pilots before it
makes it to nationals.

For more details, including accident statistics, see my article "Safer
Finishes" in the October 2002 Soaring. It's also online at my website,

http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/john....rs/#For_glider

I will also keep updated versions of this message on the website - I'm
sure to hear more objections that I can answer in the FAQ

FAQ:

1. We should leave this to pilot judgment.

We'll never substitute for pilot judgment, and handling the Mc 0 + 50
feet situation will still take lots of judgment.

There is plenty of precedent for rules that remove from "pilot
judgment" decisions that pit safety vs. competitive advantage. We used
to leave gross weight to pilot judgment. Now we impose weight limits,
and drag scales around to contests. We used to leave the question
whether you can relight after a landout to pilot judgment. Now we ban
the practice. We ban cloud flying instruments. And so forth.

Making a low final glide is a maneuver that requires extensive
experience and judgment. While there is a good case that national
level pilots can be expected to have this judgment, this is not the
case for regionals, and especially sports-class regionals, which are
explicitly aimed at newer, less experienced pilots.

2. I love the low pass finish. Don't take all the fun away

This proposal does not eliminate the fun low pass. The actual finish
can still take place over a line, at the usual altitude.

Many pilots think they will end up too high for a proper low finish,
but that is a mistake. If you pass one mile out at 500 feet and 80
kts, you will pass the finish at 50 feet well below redline. It takes
more than 500 feet just to gain the extra speed. Try it - I have.

3. This will lead to unintended consequences that are even worse.

a) Pulling up over the line.

Several pilots complained that a 500 foot finish would lead to pilots
racing in at 200 feet and then popping over the line. Good point.
That's why the proposal is now that you must be over 500 feet for the
whole distance between mile 1 and mile 2. (It is treated like special
use airspace). Now the optimal thing to do is stay above 500 feet the
whole way.

b) Traffic problems.

Perhaps people thermaling at 400 feet just outside the line will
interefere with finishing traffic. Not likely, as this does not happen
now, and all we've done is move the whole business up 500 feet. But
moving from a circle to a donut will further separate finishers from
thermalers, as it eliminates finishers below 500 feet counting on
popping up at the last moment.

c) Heads-down

Experience with the current 500 foot finish in sports class has not
revealed a big heads-down problem. Set your GPS to finish over the
airport at 500 feet. That gives you a 150 foot or so margin over the
donut.

4. This isn't the number one problem.

It isn't. Off field landings and terrain impact are still the number
one problems. Crashes near the airport and from low energy finish are
in the US a distant third.

Sailplane safety does not consist of only attacking the number one
problem. You each problem as a solution comes. Midairs are not the
number one problem, yet we all wear parachutes and look around, and
avoiding midairs is a central concern of all rule making. Assembly
errors are not the number one problem, yet we all do checks and the
rules now require them. If we can improve the #99 problem, at no cost
to the validity or fun of the race, soaring gets a little bit safer.

5. OK, I see that a high finish is a good idea, but losing all speed
points seems awfully harsh. Can't we just tack on a 5 minute penalty
or something?

The key is not the finish, the key is how this looks 5 miles out when
the pilot is passing the last good field. The whole point is to remove
"but if I squeak it in, I'll get all those speed points" from the
mental calculation. The only way to do this is to give essentially the
same points for landing 5 miles out as for squeaking it in to the
airport.

6. Soaring needs a little danger. If you can't stand the heat, get out
of the kitchen.

Several pilots have forcefully stated this opinion. If you think that
physical danger and an occasional fatality are important to keep
soaring exiting, vote against this rule.


Disclaimer: All of this is entirely my own opinion and has no
connection with the rules committee.

John Cochrane (BB)

"John Cochrane" wrote...
Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line, you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.
...
The proposal removes the agonizing points vs. life decision. If you
don't make it with a 500 foot margin, you don't get speed points. Make
your decisions based only on safety. If it's safer to squeak it in to
the airport, do so. If it's safer to land in the good field 5 miles
out, do that. Forget the race.

I hate to sound like one of those libertarians, but I have to say this proposed
rule goes too far. I defend the right of every contest pilot to find new and
creative ways to kill themselves, where I draw the line is when they threaten to
take me along with them. I'm fully capable of making my own decisions as to how
high to finish, and whether I'd be better off landing in a good field. The
problem I have with low altitude finishes (particularly with MATs) is that once
I finish, even at a comfortable altitude, I then have to contend with the
possibility of gliders coming in fast and low from various directions. I have
enough trouble landing safely on my own, I can do without the extra distraction
caused by a near miss.

A rule requiring 500 feet at the edge of the finish cylinder, and a reasonable
penalty for a rolling finish, pretty much eliminates this problem. Messing with
donuts and taking away speed points for coming up short is probably only going
to result in rebellion...

Marc

In article , bmaclean2
@cox.net says...
I take great exception with your paragraph that starts
"Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that awful situation."
Actually, the great majority of contest pilots NEVER find themselves in that
situation. Ever. If this has been a problem for you, I think you need to
rethink your strategies.

How did you determine the "great majority of contest pilots NEVER find
themselves in that situation"? My personal experience, and discussing
contest days with the other contestants over 25 years, is that most
pilots will find themselves in that situation at least once, and
frequently several times during their contest career.

It is particularly likely to happen during a contest with poor
weather, or where the contest airport weather routinely dies early. It
is less likely at areas like Minden, where the final glide starting
height is "enforced" by mountains like the Pine Nuts.

Regardless, I'm not sure if I'm in favor of this rule, but I wouldn't
mind trying it. I see no problem managing it with my glide calculator.
--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

John Boy,
Your trying to kill a gnat with a sledge hammer. I have been to many contests
with a 500 foot finish rule. This years standard nats at Montague had a 500
foot finish gate. What was the price to pay for not making it? One minute per
100 feet low was added to to your time. Now that's an appropriate penalty. Your
*distance only* penalty is like shooting somebody for shoplifting.

While I got you on the horn, your +15 minute thing is supposed to make things
fairer for the guys that dont have fancy computers that give an ETA. Well
guess what? Everybody is smart enough to make sure they get home 15 minutes
late. All you have succeeded in doing is to add 15 minutes to all optional
tasks. It's kind'a like the railroad that discovered a majority of accidents
involved the caboose being hit by another train. Their solution was to remove
all cabooses. Sounds like adding 15 minutes doesn't it?
JJ Sinclair

I will be interested to see how we measure the effectiveness
of the rule in meeting its stated purpose -- should
it be approved on a trial basis -- and how that information
will be used in determining whether to keep it or scrap
it and at what level of competition. If the intent
is to put it in on a trial basis, and, if pilots don't
object en masse, to roll it out permanently, then I'm
against it even on a trial basis. With out a critical,
empirical filter on adding complexity to the rules
I think it's a recipe for incrementally obfuscating
the rules over time -- to the point that we lose track
the bigger objectives.

9B


At 19:36 16 September 2003, Mark Zivley wrote:
We need fewer rules in general. The Darwin principle
doesn't pay much
attention to rules anyway.

John Cochrane wrote:
Fellow US pilots:

This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few
days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read
it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits
newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the
top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like
this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have
to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If
you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance
points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line,
you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.

Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that
awful situation,
5-7 miles out at MacCready 0 plus 50 feet. Or maybe
minus 50 feet.
You're passing over the last good field, and the last
chance to
properly evaluate a field, do a pattern, look for
wires, etc. From
here on in, if you don't make it, it's straight in
to whatever you
find. Common sense says 'stop, look for a thermal,
and land in this
good field.' But the contest is on the line; 400 points
and more call
you to try to pop it in over the fence. This is not
fun. It's not
safe. And it's entirely a creation of the rules.

The proposal removes the agonizing points vs. life
decision. If you
don't make it with a 500 foot margin, you don't get
speed points. Make
your decisions based only on safety. If it's safer
to squeak it in to
the airport, do so. If it's safer to land in the good
field 5 miles
out, do that. Forget the race.

This proposal is tantamount to moving the airport
up 500 feet. The
race is entirely unaffected. A race with the airport
located 500 feet
above the surrounding terrain is just as valid, just
as fun, and just
as challenging.

The rule is only suggested for regionals, and perhaps
only sports
class. It will have to have substantial support from
pilots before it
makes it to nationals.

For more details, including accident statistics, see
my article 'Safer
Finishes' in the October 2002 Soaring. It's also online
at my website,

http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/john....ch/Papers/#For
_glider

I will also keep updated versions of this message
on the website – I'm
sure to hear more objections that I can answer in
the FAQ

FAQ:

1. We should leave this to pilot judgment.

We'll never substitute for pilot judgment, and handling
the Mc 0 + 50
feet situation will still take lots of judgment.

There is plenty of precedent for rules that remove
from 'pilot
judgment' decisions that pit safety vs. competitive
advantage. We used
to leave gross weight to pilot judgment. Now we impose
weight limits,
and drag scales around to contests. We used to leave
the question
whether you can relight after a landout to pilot judgment.
Now we ban
the practice. We ban cloud flying instruments. And
so forth.

Making a low final glide is a maneuver that requires
extensive
experience and judgment. While there is a good case
that national
level pilots can be expected to have this judgment,
this is not the
case for regionals, and especially sports-class regionals,
which are
explicitly aimed at newer, less experienced pilots.

2. I love the low pass finish. Don't take all the
fun away

This proposal does not eliminate the fun low pass.
The actual finish
can still take place over a line, at the usual altitude.

Many pilots think they will end up too high for a
proper low finish,
but that is a mistake. If you pass one mile out at
500 feet and 80
kts, you will pass the finish at 50 feet well below
redline. It takes
more than 500 feet just to gain the extra speed. Try
it – I have.

3. This will lead to unintended consequences that
are even worse.

a) Pulling up over the line.

Several pilots complained that a 500 foot finish would
lead to pilots
racing in at 200 feet and then popping over the line.
Good point.
That's why the proposal is now that you must be over
500 feet for the
whole distance between mile 1 and mile 2. (It is treated
like special
use airspace). Now the optimal thing to do is stay
above 500 feet the
whole way.

b) Traffic problems.

Perhaps people thermaling at 400 feet just outside
the line will
interefere with finishing traffic. Not likely, as
this does not happen
now, and all we've done is move the whole business
up 500 feet. But
moving from a circle to a donut will further separate
finishers from
thermalers, as it eliminates finishers below 500 feet
counting on
popping up at the last moment.

c) Heads-down

Experience with the current 500 foot finish in sports
class has not
revealed a big heads-down problem. Set your GPS to
finish over the
airport at 500 feet. That gives you a 150 foot or
so margin over the
donut.

4. This isn't the number one problem.

It isn't. Off field landings and terrain impact are
still the number
one problems. Crashes near the airport and from low
energy finish are
in the US a distant third.

Sailplane safety does not consist of only attacking
the number one
problem. You each problem as a solution comes. Midairs
are not the
number one problem, yet we all wear parachutes and
look around, and
avoiding midairs is a central concern of all rule
making. Assembly
errors are not the number one problem, yet we all
do checks and the
rules now require them. If we can improve the #99
problem, at no cost
to the validity or fun of the race, soaring gets a
little bit safer.

5. OK, I see that a high finish is a good idea, but
losing all speed
points seems awfully harsh. Can't we just tack on
a 5 minute penalty
or something?

The key is not the finish, the key is how this looks
5 miles out when
the pilot is passing the last good field. The whole
point is to remove
'but if I squeak it in, I'll get all those speed points'
from the
mental calculation. The only way to do this is to
give essentially the
same points for landing 5 miles out as for squeaking
it in to the
airport.

6. Soaring needs a little danger. If you can't stand
the heat, get out
of the kitchen.

Several pilots have forcefully stated this opinion.
If you think that
physical danger and an occasional fatality are important
to keep
soaring exiting, vote against this rule.


Disclaimer: All of this is entirely my own opinion
and has no
connection with the rules committee.

John Cochrane (BB)

Sorry, but the comment "Actually, the great majority of contest pilots
NEVER find themselves in that situation." is just plain wrong. Most
of the guys I fly with have been there more than once, in many seasons.
Not to mention me. If you are trying to go fast and/or you fly in weak
weather, you WILL find yourself in this situation.
Best Regards, Dave

"BMacLean" wrote in message
...
I find it very offensive the way you use scare tactics and play on
people's
emotions to get this rule voted in. This post will succeed in
discouraging
new contest pilots. I take great exception with your paragraph that
starts
"Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that awful situation."
Actually, the great majority of contest pilots NEVER find themselves in
that
situation. Ever. If this has been a problem for you, I think you need to
rethink your strategies.

Barb MacLean

Somehow, John, I feel that your posting should have ended with the word
"vote".

Perhaps a member of the rules committee should not be 'campaigning' to
shame/scare us into our "opinions".

Personally, I think the 15minute rule, and this rule, are unnecessary
complications to an already overly -complicated sport.

It takes a season of flying just to get used to the new rules! And then
next year, guess what?
New rules!






John Bojack "J4"





This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line, you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.

Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that awful situation,
5-7 miles out at MacCready 0 plus 50 feet. Or maybe minus 50 feet.
You're passing over the last good field, and the last chance to
properly evaluate a field, do a pattern, look for wires, etc. From
here on in, if you don't make it, it's straight in to whatever you
find. Common sense says "stop, look for a thermal, and land in this
good field." But the contest is on the line; 400 points and more call
you to try to pop it in over the fence. This is not fun. It's not
safe. And it's entirely a creation of the rules.

The proposal removes the agonizing points vs. life decision. If you
don't make it with a 500 foot margin, you don't get speed points. Make
your decisions based only on safety. If it's safer to squeak it in to
the airport, do so. If it's safer to land in the good field 5 miles
out, do that. Forget the race.

This proposal is tantamount to moving the airport up 500 feet. The
race is entirely unaffected. A race with the airport located 500 feet
above the surrounding terrain is just as valid, just as fun, and just
as challenging.

The rule is only suggested for regionals, and perhaps only sports
class. It will have to have substantial support from pilots before it
makes it to nationals.

For more details, including accident statistics, see my article "Safer
Finishes" in the October 2002 Soaring. It's also online at my website,

http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/john....rs/#For_glider

I will also keep updated versions of this message on the website - I'm
sure to hear more objections that I can answer in the FAQ

FAQ:

1. We should leave this to pilot judgment.

We'll never substitute for pilot judgment, and handling the Mc 0 + 50
feet situation will still take lots of judgment.

There is plenty of precedent for rules that remove from "pilot
judgment" decisions that pit safety vs. competitive advantage. We used
to leave gross weight to pilot judgment. Now we impose weight limits,
and drag scales around to contests. We used to leave the question
whether you can relight after a landout to pilot judgment. Now we ban
the practice. We ban cloud flying instruments. And so forth.

Making a low final glide is a maneuver that requires extensive
experience and judgment. While there is a good case that national
level pilots can be expected to have this judgment, this is not the
case for regionals, and especially sports-class regionals, which are
explicitly aimed at newer, less experienced pilots.

2. I love the low pass finish. Don't take all the fun away

This proposal does not eliminate the fun low pass. The actual finish
can still take place over a line, at the usual altitude.

Many pilots think they will end up too high for a proper low finish,
but that is a mistake. If you pass one mile out at 500 feet and 80
kts, you will pass the finish at 50 feet well below redline. It takes
more than 500 feet just to gain the extra speed. Try it - I have.

3. This will lead to unintended consequences that are even worse.

a) Pulling up over the line.

Several pilots complained that a 500 foot finish would lead to pilots
racing in at 200 feet and then popping over the line. Good point.
That's why the proposal is now that you must be over 500 feet for the
whole distance between mile 1 and mile 2. (It is treated like special
use airspace). Now the optimal thing to do is stay above 500 feet the
whole way.

b) Traffic problems.

Perhaps people thermaling at 400 feet just outside the line will
interefere with finishing traffic. Not likely, as this does not happen
now, and all we've done is move the whole business up 500 feet. But
moving from a circle to a donut will further separate finishers from
thermalers, as it eliminates finishers below 500 feet counting on
popping up at the last moment.

c) Heads-down

Experience with the current 500 foot finish in sports class has not
revealed a big heads-down problem. Set your GPS to finish over the
airport at 500 feet. That gives you a 150 foot or so margin over the
donut.

4. This isn't the number one problem.

It isn't. Off field landings and terrain impact are still the number
one problems. Crashes near the airport and from low energy finish are
in the US a distant third.

Sailplane safety does not consist of only attacking the number one
problem. You each problem as a solution comes. Midairs are not the
number one problem, yet we all wear parachutes and look around, and
avoiding midairs is a central concern of all rule making. Assembly
errors are not the number one problem, yet we all do checks and the
rules now require them. If we can improve the #99 problem, at no cost
to the validity or fun of the race, soaring gets a little bit safer.

5. OK, I see that a high finish is a good idea, but losing all speed
points seems awfully harsh. Can't we just tack on a 5 minute penalty
or something?

The key is not the finish, the key is how this looks 5 miles out when
the pilot is passing the last good field. The whole point is to remove
"but if I squeak it in, I'll get all those speed points" from the
mental calculation. The only way to do this is to give essentially the
same points for landing 5 miles out as for squeaking it in to the
airport.

6. Soaring needs a little danger. If you can't stand the heat, get out
of the kitchen.

Several pilots have forcefully stated this opinion. If you think that
physical danger and an occasional fatality are important to keep
soaring exiting, vote against this rule.


Disclaimer: All of this is entirely my own opinion and has no
connection with the rules committee.

John Cochrane (BB)

Hi,

This discussion is very interesting.

I applaud John for his efforts to make sailplane racing safer. I agree with
the theory that if we just move the playing field up 500 feet, it will
dramatically improve safety. It is my impression that is what he is trying
to do.

Why is that so bad?

I also agree that I'd prefer to have fewer rules, but in this case I must
lean toward safety over simplicity.

I must admit that I am a pilot with 2 young children and I will vote for
anything that will allow me to continue to fly contests with less reason to
worry that I'll leave my kids without a father or my wife without her
husband.

I must also admit that I am a relatively inexperienced contest pilot -
having flown in only 4 contests.

Fly Safe,

Paul Remde

"Andy Blackburn" wrote in message
...
I will be interested to see how we measure the effectiveness
of the rule in meeting its stated purpose -- should
it be approved on a trial basis -- and how that information
will be used in determining whether to keep it or scrap
it and at what level of competition. If the intent
is to put it in on a trial basis, and, if pilots don't
object en masse, to roll it out permanently, then I'm
against it even on a trial basis. With out a critical,
empirical filter on adding complexity to the rules
I think it's a recipe for incrementally obfuscating
the rules over time -- to the point that we lose track
the bigger objectives.

9B


At 19:36 16 September 2003, Mark Zivley wrote:
We need fewer rules in general. The Darwin principle
doesn't pay much
attention to rules anyway.

John Cochrane wrote:
Fellow US pilots:

This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few
days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read
it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits
newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the
top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like
this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have
to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If
you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance
points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line,
you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.

Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that
awful situation,
5-7 miles out at MacCready 0 plus 50 feet. Or maybe
minus 50 feet.
You're passing over the last good field, and the last
chance to
properly evaluate a field, do a pattern, look for
wires, etc. From
here on in, if you don't make it, it's straight in
to whatever you
find. Common sense says 'stop, look for a thermal,
and land in this
good field.' But the contest is on the line; 400 points
and more call
you to try to pop it in over the fence. This is not
fun. It's not
safe. And it's entirely a creation of the rules.

The proposal removes the agonizing points vs. life
decision. If you
don't make it with a 500 foot margin, you don't get
speed points. Make
your decisions based only on safety. If it's safer
to squeak it in to
the airport, do so. If it's safer to land in the good
field 5 miles
out, do that. Forget the race.

This proposal is tantamount to moving the airport
up 500 feet. The
race is entirely unaffected. A race with the airport
located 500 feet
above the surrounding terrain is just as valid, just
as fun, and just
as challenging.

The rule is only suggested for regionals, and perhaps
only sports
class. It will have to have substantial support from
pilots before it
makes it to nationals.

For more details, including accident statistics, see
my article 'Safer
Finishes' in the October 2002 Soaring. It's also online
at my website,

http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/john....ch/Papers/#For
_glider

I will also keep updated versions of this message
on the website - I'm
sure to hear more objections that I can answer in
the FAQ

FAQ:

1. We should leave this to pilot judgment.

We'll never substitute for pilot judgment, and handling
the Mc 0 + 50
feet situation will still take lots of judgment.

There is plenty of precedent for rules that remove
from 'pilot
judgment' decisions that pit safety vs. competitive
advantage. We used
to leave gross weight to pilot judgment. Now we impose
weight limits,
and drag scales around to contests. We used to leave
the question
whether you can relight after a landout to pilot judgment.
Now we ban
the practice. We ban cloud flying instruments. And
so forth.

Making a low final glide is a maneuver that requires
extensive
experience and judgment. While there is a good case
that national
level pilots can be expected to have this judgment,
this is not the
case for regionals, and especially sports-class regionals,
which are
explicitly aimed at newer, less experienced pilots.

2. I love the low pass finish. Don't take all the
fun away

This proposal does not eliminate the fun low pass.
The actual finish
can still take place over a line, at the usual altitude.

Many pilots think they will end up too high for a
proper low finish,
but that is a mistake. If you pass one mile out at
500 feet and 80
kts, you will pass the finish at 50 feet well below
redline. It takes
more than 500 feet just to gain the extra speed. Try
it - I have.

3. This will lead to unintended consequences that
are even worse.

a) Pulling up over the line.

Several pilots complained that a 500 foot finish would
lead to pilots
racing in at 200 feet and then popping over the line.
Good point.
That's why the proposal is now that you must be over
500 feet for the
whole distance between mile 1 and mile 2. (It is treated
like special
use airspace). Now the optimal thing to do is stay
above 500 feet the
whole way.

b) Traffic problems.

Perhaps people thermaling at 400 feet just outside
the line will
interefere with finishing traffic. Not likely, as
this does not happen
now, and all we've done is move the whole business
up 500 feet. But
moving from a circle to a donut will further separate
finishers from
thermalers, as it eliminates finishers below 500 feet
counting on
popping up at the last moment.

c) Heads-down

Experience with the current 500 foot finish in sports
class has not
revealed a big heads-down problem. Set your GPS to
finish over the
airport at 500 feet. That gives you a 150 foot or
so margin over the
donut.

4. This isn't the number one problem.

It isn't. Off field landings and terrain impact are
still the number
one problems. Crashes near the airport and from low
energy finish are
in the US a distant third.

Sailplane safety does not consist of only attacking
the number one
problem. You each problem as a solution comes. Midairs
are not the
number one problem, yet we all wear parachutes and
look around, and
avoiding midairs is a central concern of all rule
making. Assembly
errors are not the number one problem, yet we all
do checks and the
rules now require them. If we can improve the #99
problem, at no cost
to the validity or fun of the race, soaring gets a
little bit safer.

5. OK, I see that a high finish is a good idea, but
losing all speed
points seems awfully harsh. Can't we just tack on
a 5 minute penalty
or something?

The key is not the finish, the key is how this looks
5 miles out when
the pilot is passing the last good field. The whole
point is to remove
'but if I squeak it in, I'll get all those speed points'
from the
mental calculation. The only way to do this is to
give essentially the
same points for landing 5 miles out as for squeaking
it in to the
airport.

6. Soaring needs a little danger. If you can't stand
the heat, get out
of the kitchen.

Several pilots have forcefully stated this opinion.
If you think that
physical danger and an occasional fatality are important
to keep
soaring exiting, vote against this rule.


Disclaimer: All of this is entirely my own opinion
and has no
connection with the rules committee.

John Cochrane (BB)

Okay, I get it!

However, Cochrane said that it's really for the new pilots and not the top
pilots anyway. Since I'm in that beginner intermediate contest pilot group,
I can assure you that our problem is not arriving back too low, it's
arriving back with way too much altitude. If new pilots are trying to do
things beyond their capabilities, a 500' finish isn't going to protect them.

Barb



"Dave Nadler "YO"" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but the comment "Actually, the great majority of contest pilots
NEVER find themselves in that situation." is just plain wrong. Most
of the guys I fly with have been there more than once, in many seasons.
Not to mention me. If you are trying to go fast and/or you fly in weak
weather, you WILL find yourself in this situation.
Best Regards, Dave

"BMacLean" wrote in message
...
I find it very offensive the way you use scare tactics and play on
people's
emotions to get this rule voted in. This post will succeed in
discouraging
new contest pilots. I take great exception with your paragraph that
starts
"Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that awful situation."
Actually, the great majority of contest pilots NEVER find themselves in
that
situation. Ever. If this has been a problem for you, I think you need
to
rethink your strategies.

Barb MacLean