TSA - another indignity for permanent residents

I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being extended to all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were all asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

Faced with the requirement to send the TSA all the identifying information,
finding someone to fingerprint me and figuring out how to get the prints
filed, and paying $130 for the privilege - well, I wonder if the Commercial
certificate is worth it. I did also have vague ideas of becoming an elderly
instructor; forget that.

Now, I know that sounds like special pleading, and Big Brother already has
my fingerprints in my Resident Alien file so no big deal, and $130 is less
than an hour of training, but right now it's looking like the final straw.
And it's bull**** on the face of it. Residents have already undergone deep
security investigations. If everyone reacts like me, the result will be
less-well-trained pilots mixing it up with the rest of you in the sky. Is
the BFR considered training under the rule (part 61 calls it instruction)?
If so, the clock is ticking in any case. One justification in the rule says
that the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly small planes, but there's no logic
provided to support restrictions on existing certified pilots who want more
advanced ratings.

I mailed AOPA, I'll add these comments to the docket. I called my FBO, and
the chief instructor said "oh, nice of them to inform the schools" and said
she would start rattling cages.

-- David Brooks

Just after I sent to r.a.p, I realized I should have x-posted to a more
relevant group. Hoping this can catch any thread that develops.

-- David Brooks

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:

http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being extended to
all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were all
asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

Faced with the requirement to send the TSA all the identifying
information,
finding someone to fingerprint me and figuring out how to get the prints
filed, and paying $130 for the privilege - well, I wonder if the
Commercial
certificate is worth it. I did also have vague ideas of becoming an
elderly
instructor; forget that.

Now, I know that sounds like special pleading, and Big Brother already has
my fingerprints in my Resident Alien file so no big deal, and $130 is less
than an hour of training, but right now it's looking like the final straw.
And it's bull**** on the face of it. Residents have already undergone deep
security investigations. If everyone reacts like me, the result will be
less-well-trained pilots mixing it up with the rest of you in the sky. Is
the BFR considered training under the rule (part 61 calls it instruction)?
If so, the clock is ticking in any case. One justification in the rule
says
that the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly small planes, but there's no logic
provided to support restrictions on existing certified pilots who want
more
advanced ratings.

I mailed AOPA, I'll add these comments to the docket. I called my FBO, and
the chief instructor said "oh, nice of them to inform the schools" and
said
she would start rattling cages.

-- David Brooks

In a previous article, "David Brooks" said:
"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:

http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.

Amazing. I've briefly scanned it to see if there was an exemption for us
permanent residents, but everywhere I look I see "aliens", not
"non-resident aliens". Hey, I thought I passed my security checks when I
got fingerprinted and had to provide proof that I had no outstanding
warrants back in Canada.

This sucks.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
You've got to love a newsreader with a menu option named "Kill this Author".
Does it work? And if so, is the death traceable?
Nah, but Dave the Resurrector will just bring 'em back again.

I have a question....

Since this is for "training", "alien" CFI's are exempt since we're doing the
training? I'm an "alien" CFI and if I understand this, I don't have to send
anything to the TSA for myself, just fellow aliens that are seeking
training.
BUT, if I were to seek additional training, I would have to send the TSA
the required doc. Or when I need a BFR(which is training), I would need
to comply with this nonsense. I called AOPA with this question and they
don't have an answer yet.

The TSA has foiled the terrorists once again!! All those terrorists that
are about to start their IFR training will now be captured by the TSA!!
And here I thought this agency were just a bunch of nitwits..... ; - )



"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being extended to
all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were all
asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

Faced with the requirement to send the TSA all the identifying
information,
finding someone to fingerprint me and figuring out how to get the prints
filed, and paying $130 for the privilege - well, I wonder if the
Commercial
certificate is worth it. I did also have vague ideas of becoming an
elderly
instructor; forget that.

Now, I know that sounds like special pleading, and Big Brother already has
my fingerprints in my Resident Alien file so no big deal, and $130 is less
than an hour of training, but right now it's looking like the final straw.
And it's bull**** on the face of it. Residents have already undergone deep
security investigations. If everyone reacts like me, the result will be
less-well-trained pilots mixing it up with the rest of you in the sky. Is
the BFR considered training under the rule (part 61 calls it instruction)?
If so, the clock is ticking in any case. One justification in the rule
says
that the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly small planes, but there's no logic
provided to support restrictions on existing certified pilots who want
more
advanced ratings.

I mailed AOPA, I'll add these comments to the docket. I called my FBO, and
the chief instructor said "oh, nice of them to inform the schools" and
said
she would start rattling cages.

-- David Brooks

"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:Zwl4d.26699$wV.2744@attbi_s54...
I have a question....

Since this is for "training", "alien" CFI's are exempt since we're doing
the
training? I'm an "alien" CFI and if I understand this, I don't have to
send
anything to the TSA for myself, just fellow aliens that are seeking
training.
BUT, if I were to seek additional training, I would have to send the TSA
the required doc. Or when I need a BFR(which is training), I would need
to comply with this nonsense. I called AOPA with this question and they
don't have an answer yet.

My reply from Ian Twombly at AOPA says they understand flight review and
instrument refresher are included, although they don't fit the model of
"applying for a course of training". By "refresher" I think he referred to
my question about "three and a hold", not just IPC.

Actually, the whole model adopted by the rule is that you go to a school,
apply for training, finish it, and you're done. I think of myself as a
customer of the flight school who must happens to be taking lessons towards
my Commercial, with occasional too-long layoffs, and with the occasional FR
or instrument refresher thrown in.

The $130 doesn't include the estimated $75 cost of fingerprinting.

The TSA has foiled the terrorists once again!! All those terrorists that
are about to start their IFR training will now be captured by the TSA!!
And here I thought this agency were just a bunch of nitwits..... ; - )



"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:

http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being extended to
all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were all
asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

Faced with the requirement to send the TSA all the identifying
information,
finding someone to fingerprint me and figuring out how to get the prints
filed, and paying $130 for the privilege - well, I wonder if the
Commercial
certificate is worth it. I did also have vague ideas of becoming an
elderly
instructor; forget that.

Now, I know that sounds like special pleading, and Big Brother already
has
my fingerprints in my Resident Alien file so no big deal, and $130 is
less
than an hour of training, but right now it's looking like the final
straw.
And it's bull**** on the face of it. Residents have already undergone
deep
security investigations. If everyone reacts like me, the result will be
less-well-trained pilots mixing it up with the rest of you in the sky.
Is
the BFR considered training under the rule (part 61 calls it
instruction)?
If so, the clock is ticking in any case. One justification in the rule
says
that the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly small planes, but there's no
logic
provided to support restrictions on existing certified pilots who want
more
advanced ratings.

I mailed AOPA, I'll add these comments to the docket. I called my FBO,
and
the chief instructor said "oh, nice of them to inform the schools" and
said
she would start rattling cages.

-- David Brooks

Did you notice that in the local news coverage of the Oregon attorney who
was incorrectly tabbed as a terrorist in the Spanish train bombing, it was
stated that he had taken flight lessons? Oh, the horror!!!

Bob Gardner

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:Zwl4d.26699$wV.2744@attbi_s54...
I have a question....

Since this is for "training", "alien" CFI's are exempt since we're doing
the
training? I'm an "alien" CFI and if I understand this, I don't have to
send
anything to the TSA for myself, just fellow aliens that are seeking
training.
BUT, if I were to seek additional training, I would have to send the TSA
the required doc. Or when I need a BFR(which is training), I would need
to comply with this nonsense. I called AOPA with this question and they
don't have an answer yet.

My reply from Ian Twombly at AOPA says they understand flight review and
instrument refresher are included, although they don't fit the model of
"applying for a course of training". By "refresher" I think he referred to
my question about "three and a hold", not just IPC.

Actually, the whole model adopted by the rule is that you go to a school,
apply for training, finish it, and you're done. I think of myself as a
customer of the flight school who must happens to be taking lessons
towards
my Commercial, with occasional too-long layoffs, and with the occasional
FR
or instrument refresher thrown in.

The $130 doesn't include the estimated $75 cost of fingerprinting.

The TSA has foiled the terrorists once again!! All those terrorists that
are about to start their IFR training will now be captured by the TSA!!
And here I thought this agency were just a bunch of nitwits..... ; - )



"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:

http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being extended
to
all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were all
asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation
and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

Faced with the requirement to send the TSA all the identifying
information,
finding someone to fingerprint me and figuring out how to get the
prints
filed, and paying $130 for the privilege - well, I wonder if the
Commercial
certificate is worth it. I did also have vague ideas of becoming an
elderly
instructor; forget that.

Now, I know that sounds like special pleading, and Big Brother already
has
my fingerprints in my Resident Alien file so no big deal, and $130 is
less
than an hour of training, but right now it's looking like the final
straw.
And it's bull**** on the face of it. Residents have already undergone
deep
security investigations. If everyone reacts like me, the result will be
less-well-trained pilots mixing it up with the rest of you in the sky.
Is
the BFR considered training under the rule (part 61 calls it
instruction)?
If so, the clock is ticking in any case. One justification in the rule
says
that the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly small planes, but there's no
logic
provided to support restrictions on existing certified pilots who want
more
advanced ratings.

I mailed AOPA, I'll add these comments to the docket. I called my FBO,
and
the chief instructor said "oh, nice of them to inform the schools" and
said
she would start rattling cages.

-- David Brooks

How long do you think before all pilots wind up on some
"watch list". Maybe we already are....


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Did you notice that in the local news coverage of the Oregon attorney who
was incorrectly tabbed as a terrorist in the Spanish train bombing, it was
stated that he had taken flight lessons? Oh, the horror!!!

Bob Gardner

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:Zwl4d.26699$wV.2744@attbi_s54...
I have a question....

Since this is for "training", "alien" CFI's are exempt since we're doing
the
training? I'm an "alien" CFI and if I understand this, I don't have to
send
anything to the TSA for myself, just fellow aliens that are seeking
training.
BUT, if I were to seek additional training, I would have to send the TSA
the required doc. Or when I need a BFR(which is training), I would need
to comply with this nonsense. I called AOPA with this question and they
don't have an answer yet.

My reply from Ian Twombly at AOPA says they understand flight review and
instrument refresher are included, although they don't fit the model of
"applying for a course of training". By "refresher" I think he referred
to
my question about "three and a hold", not just IPC.

Actually, the whole model adopted by the rule is that you go to a school,
apply for training, finish it, and you're done. I think of myself as a
customer of the flight school who must happens to be taking lessons
towards
my Commercial, with occasional too-long layoffs, and with the occasional
FR
or instrument refresher thrown in.

The $130 doesn't include the estimated $75 cost of fingerprinting.

The TSA has foiled the terrorists once again!! All those terrorists that
are about to start their IFR training will now be captured by the TSA!!
And here I thought this agency were just a bunch of nitwits..... ; - )



"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:

http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being extended
to
all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were all
asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation
and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

Faced with the requirement to send the TSA all the identifying
information,
finding someone to fingerprint me and figuring out how to get the
prints
filed, and paying $130 for the privilege - well, I wonder if the
Commercial
certificate is worth it. I did also have vague ideas of becoming an
elderly
instructor; forget that.

Now, I know that sounds like special pleading, and Big Brother already
has
my fingerprints in my Resident Alien file so no big deal, and $130 is
less
than an hour of training, but right now it's looking like the final
straw.
And it's bull**** on the face of it. Residents have already undergone
deep
security investigations. If everyone reacts like me, the result will
be
less-well-trained pilots mixing it up with the rest of you in the sky.
Is
the BFR considered training under the rule (part 61 calls it
instruction)?
If so, the clock is ticking in any case. One justification in the rule
says
that the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly small planes, but there's no
logic
provided to support restrictions on existing certified pilots who want
more
advanced ratings.

I mailed AOPA, I'll add these comments to the docket. I called my FBO,
and
the chief instructor said "oh, nice of them to inform the schools" and
said
she would start rattling cages.

-- David Brooks

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.

Ugh.

I want to know when these kinds of regulations are going to start being
implemented for the boat training industry. And the truck driving industry.
And the driver education industry. How about the railroad training
industry?

IMHO, part of the problem is that's *only* been aviation that's been singled
out, and we're just not big enough to make a difference. No one else cares
about us, and we're not a large enough constituency for any politician to
take us seriously.

Seems like our best bet would be to simply start lobbying Congress and the
TSA to close up the "security holes" that exist in all the *other*
transportation industries. Once they start suffering under the same rules,
then we'll have some seriously significant allies for the fight.

Someone remind me...how long did it take the country to get through
McCarthyism?

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
Someone remind me...how long did it take the country to get through
McCarthyism?



It IS a rather bizarre society.

Guns are encouraged. I guess they are never misused....
Aviation is tightly controlled, more tightly every passing week. I guess
aviation must be bad.


--
*** A great civilization is not conquered from without until it
has destroyed itself from within. ***
- Ariel Durant 1898-1981

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
In a previous article, "David Brooks"
said:
"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:


http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...=19147&searchT
ype=docket.

Amazing. I've briefly scanned it to see if there was an exemption for us
permanent residents, but everywhere I look I see "aliens", not
"non-resident aliens". Hey, I thought I passed my security checks when I
got fingerprinted and had to provide proof that I had no outstanding
warrants back in Canada.

This sucks.

There's a beautiful paragraph in the analysis.

"TSA does not expect a significant impact on the overall demand for U.S.
flight training...the IFR only impacts alien candidates for U.S. flight
training..."

False.

"...and the population of alien candidates is small relative to the number
of U.S. flight students..."

18% is small? OK, it's less than one fifth, but it is significant, and
higher than I would have expected. Where did I get that 18% number? From a
previous page of the IFR, and it comes from the FAA.

"...the impact on demand will not be significant because U.S. flight
training is considered to be the global standard, and it is comparatively
less expensive to obtain a pilot's certificate in the U.S...."

This seems to assume that all noncitizen pilots are traveling here for
training; the argument is irrelevant to people like Paul and me. I'd like to
know how many of that 18% (an FAA number) are residents versus visitors.

-- David Brooks