How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 18:39:42 -0700, Dan Daly wrote:

Martin, the 100 km Diploma is not recognized in North America.

Thanks for the clarification. I think its a useful sized task for a
fledging XC pilot, so its something that a club might want to use.

My club has a 109km triangle with easily recognised TPs and a 200km O/R
which both have annually awarded cups. Both are into the prevailing wind
from our field and both are commonly used by early XC pilots.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:17:46 -0700, unclhank wrote:

Unless there has been a change that I am not aware of, one can declare a
remote start point, fly to a remote finish. and return to the home base.

Yes, of course. A Silver distance can be done as you describe *provided
that* it has a 50km leg, which is all that counts for Silver.

I thought the post I replied to could be read as if flying a closed task
totalling 50km would count as Silver Distance but it would not.

Altitude loss is calculated from release height to height at finish
point. The task some of our folks have done for this turns out to
require about a 130k flight which seems about right if one is flying
modern glass.

Too true. The prospective Silver Badge holder should read the rulebook
before planning any of the three elements, but always remebering that the
Silver C can be and has been completed in one flight!


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

As a newbie I was encouraged to fly in the TSA (Texas Soaring
Association) Labor Day lap races in Sports Class. On the practice day,
I was a couple of miles outbound when a woman who'd started with me was
finishing! After I landed, I asked her how she flew so fast. She told
me not to circle so much.

The first race day was a small triangle with a 50+ KM leg so I declared
a Silver Distance and was careful to take pictures for both the turn
points and for the badge leg. The quadrants were different! I achieved
the badge leg and, in fact, took first place in Sports. One more tug on
the line which set the hook even deeper.

On 8/19/2015 5:10 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:17:46 -0700, unclhank wrote:

Unless there has been a change that I am not aware of, one can declare a
remote start point, fly to a remote finish. and return to the home base.

Yes, of course. A Silver distance can be done as you describe *provided
that* it has a 50km leg, which is all that counts for Silver.

I thought the post I replied to could be read as if flying a closed task
totalling 50km would count as Silver Distance but it would not.

Altitude loss is calculated from release height to height at finish
point. The task some of our folks have done for this turns out to
require about a 130k flight which seems about right if one is flying
modern glass.

Too true. The prospective Silver Badge holder should read the rulebook
before planning any of the three elements, but always remebering that the
Silver C can be and has been completed in one flight!



--
Dan Marotta

so i got one comment on the "graduated training flights" (which immediately devolved into a flurry of responses on the nuances of badge flights) and one comment on where to fly XC out of the NYC area.

is the lack of enthusiasm for adressing these 4 actual problems encountered by an actual interested newbie glider pilot a reflection of the sport's inability to attract and encourage new XC pilots?

--bob

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 5:49:54 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
as someone who needs no additional inspiration to become an XC glider pilot (I have Silver Altitude and Silver Distance, and have flown 4.5 and 8.0 with Kempton in his ASH-25), here are the obstacles:

A glider. I either have to buy a glider and only fly out of a local airpot (Blairstown or Wurstburo), since I don't neither have a vehicle that can tow a glider nor do I have the time to tow it anywhere. Or I have to find a club that allows XC flights. I have tried to contact Blairstown numerous times, and nobody answers their email. Wurstboro is only open week-ends, and is therefore less desirable. Lastly, I can continue to rent out of commercial operations, but all of them have been fairly unwilling to let me take a glider out of the local area without substantial time in the area, with the notable except of Soaring NV.

Graduated training flights. It would be great if the locals would put up on their website some proposed training flights of increasing difficulty suited to the terrain and the typical weather of for the area. These graduated training flights should be structured around Silver Distance, Gold Distance, and Diamond Goal. For example, for Silver Distance as a triangle, there could be two practice flights, out and back to each of the other two points on the triangle, and then the third for all three points.

Dual XC flights. For those of you who have single-seat gliders, get current in a mid-performance two-seater and take people on cross-country flights.. Kempton took me on two flights last month (see OLC links below), and I learned more in one hour of XC with him than I have from anyone else. You don't have to be a CFI. Any one who is ready for XC should be able to learn just from watching and asking questions.

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...tId=-925876405
http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...tId=-976935827

Contest training. No where have I seen any in-person training on how to actually fly a contest (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist). I would love to see a 1-hour training video that takes me through the entire process, or even a "contest training camp" (maybe the OLC camp?)

I guess this is a pretty good start.

--bob

One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-). But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

Very good point.
Under the new EASA rules, students have to demonstrate xc-capabilities before earning their licence.
In Germany, that has been mandatory ever since. And in Germany or France, a candidate for FI had to prove a total XC experience of at least 500 km (and the total training time obtaining the FI level is one year, typically).

Bert
Ventus cM TW

Am Mittwoch, 19. August 2015 16:43:14 UTC+2 schrieb Sean Fidler:
One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-). But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 9:20:55 AM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
Very good point.
Under the new EASA rules, students have to demonstrate xc-capabilities before earning their licence.
In Germany, that has been mandatory ever since. And in Germany or France, a candidate for FI had to prove a total XC experience of at least 500 km (and the total training time obtaining the FI level is one year, typically).

Bert
Ventus cM TW

Am Mittwoch, 19. August 2015 16:43:14 UTC+2 schrieb Sean Fidler:
One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-). But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

I expect the FAA will eventually change Part 61 to fall in line with EASA.

FWIW, the EASA experience requirements for the equivalent of a PP-G a


10 hours of dual instruction
-
2 hours supervised solo flight time
-
45 launches and landings
-
1 cross country flight of at least 100km under the supervision of an instructor

That is FANTASTIC NEWS!

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 3:48:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 9:20:55 AM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
Very good point.
Under the new EASA rules, students have to demonstrate xc-capabilities before earning their licence.
In Germany, that has been mandatory ever since. And in Germany or France, a candidate for FI had to prove a total XC experience of at least 500 km (and the total training time obtaining the FI level is one year, typically).

Bert
Ventus cM TW

Am Mittwoch, 19. August 2015 16:43:14 UTC+2 schrieb Sean Fidler:
One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-).. But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

I expect the FAA will eventually change Part 61 to fall in line with EASA..

FWIW, the EASA experience requirements for the equivalent of a PP-G a


10 hours of dual instruction
-
2 hours supervised solo flight time
-
45 launches and landings
-
1 cross country flight of at least 100km under the supervision of an instructor

Not really. The actual EASA requirement is for a solo 50km flight or a dual 100km flight.

These do not have to be FAI silver badge qualifying flights. It is possible to fly a 50km quadrilateral without getting more than 15km from the airfield, ie local soaring on a half decent day. Also, the cross country flight is training, not a test; the student can be a passenger while the instructor goes for a jolly & points out a few landmarks, the flight still qualifies. The dual flight can be done in a TMG so it's all a bit of a joke.

The likelihood in my part of EASA-land is that we will continue to do 100km dual cross country flights as a test & if flown in a TMG to simulate typical gliding flight (ie not in straight lines at a constant altitude.) The legal minimum & what is sensible are not necessarily the same.

Ed


On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 9:02:06 PM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:
That is FANTASTIC NEWS!

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 3:48:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 9:20:55 AM UTC-6, Tango Whisky wrote:
Very good point.
Under the new EASA rules, students have to demonstrate xc-capabilities before earning their licence.
In Germany, that has been mandatory ever since. And in Germany or France, a candidate for FI had to prove a total XC experience of at least 500 km (and the total training time obtaining the FI level is one year, typically).

Bert
Ventus cM TW

Am Mittwoch, 19. August 2015 16:43:14 UTC+2 schrieb Sean Fidler:
One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

If we let students earn their "glider rating" purely by flying within gliding range of the airport, we unsurprisingly get a large portion of "rated" glider pilots who become very comfortable not venturing outside of gliding range of the airport. This is really no surprise, is it?

"Train how you fight, fight how you train..."

If students (and their instructors), as part of their training, never have to truly think about, plan or execute XC skills are we not setting them up for XC failure? More importantly, our CFIGs can happily exists as CFIGs without any skill, experience or desire for cross country flight! You can get a CFIG rating and keep it today without ever having ventured outside of "gliding range" of the airport! In fact, many CFIGs openly discourage XC flight as irresponsible, etc. Land outs are bad...mmm-Kay! The same goes for most FAA glider "examiners(?)." This is incredible to me and probably a little frustrating to many of us.

Many (most?, but not all!) glider "instructors" simply never learn XC skills and therefore never really teach it (or meaningfully encourage it). They often don't have a great LOVE for cross country. They often don't understand it. Many see glider flight close to the airport as normal and how it "should" be. Many are not passionate about moving their students towards cross country. Obviously, these glider "instructors" are not the greatest "spark-plugs" for preparing new glider pilots to get into the more advanced levels of the sport of soaring (XC). In certain cases they are "allowed" to actively discourage developing cross country skills (that's dangerous, etc). They know who they are.

This broken dynamic is a major problem that we face with soaring today. It is at least part of the reason why we are seeing fewer new pilots joining us on cross country's.

If I was "king" ;-) I would fundamentally change this FAA glider instruction dynamic.

1) Students would have to plan for and complete a short 50km cross country as part of the flight training process. Instructors would have to truly teach this XC skill, and help the student practice it! This short XC would be a required element. The student would not have to do this solo. Waivers for instruction in difficult terrain (why get flight training here?) or poor weather (why get glider training in the winter?) would be allowed, but in general XC would be an important highlight of the glider flight training experience (vs something that is just glanced over). Just like the long cross country is a highlight of a private power rating, the XC element of the glider rating would be the most memorable (and inspirational) for the student! If I remember correctly the long cross country (power) is done both with an instructor and solo! Why is this short XC not at least a requirement with the instructor with gliders? It makes no sense to me. Even a 20 km cross country would be better than nothing.

2) CFIGs would need to compete a 100km cross country (with a student or solo) every 2 years to remain current. This would need to be verified like a silver badge is today with witnesses, etc. Period! No exceptions. You either love the sport of soaring (XC) and are competent at it OR you are not. We need CFIGs to be ambassadors for cross country soaring and truly love it. Don't tell me...SHOW ME! Prove it.

3) FAA examiners would also need to have a 100km cross country every 2 years. They need to be able to evaluate the students ability to understand cross country soaring in the oral examination. Without some minimum cross country experience themselves, this is a total pushover.

I'll retreat to my bunker for the fallout this post will create! ;-). But I have to say we need some changes in this area of the sport.

Sean

I expect the FAA will eventually change Part 61 to fall in line with EASA.

FWIW, the EASA experience requirements for the equivalent of a PP-G a


10 hours of dual instruction
-
2 hours supervised solo flight time
-
45 launches and landings
-
1 cross country flight of at least 100km under the supervision of an instructor

On Wednesday, August 19, 2015 at 10:43:14 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
One big glaring issue I see in regards to encouraging XC is that a short cross country flight is not a requirement for earning a glider private rating (or a commercial rating for that matter)?

Honestly, at the time when I took my commercial glider checkride, I wasn't prepared to do a cross country.

Instead, i focused on the Silver badge achievements after my rating.