Nimbus 4DT accident 31 July 2000 in Spain.

Aha! That seems very civilized. Good.

At 22:54 03 July 2005, Ian Johnston wrote:
On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:35:33 UTC, M B
wrote:

Is it my understanding that the winch drivers
at these operations make NOTHING? No money at all?

The club at which I am a winch instructor allows the
duty winch driver
to fly (once) in a club glider whenever s/he wishes
during their
stint, bypassing the list. That flight is free.

Ian

Mark J. Boyd

Ian Johnston wrote:
I stand completely by what I wrote. Ten or so launches
to do
it reasonably well, twenty to be giving bang on, optimum
speed,
perfect height launches every time.

Define reasonable? If this is above safe climbing speed
and below max launch speed, and the winch driver can
hold steady within 2- 5 knots (on a windy day, through
a wind gradient) up the launch, I would call that reasonable,
in fact pretty good, all our winch drivers will achieve
this well within 10 launches, normally within 2.

Of course it's possible to do some sort of launch without
taking much
care over it. If you don't fly at a club which takes
winch driving
seriously you probably don't know how good it can be.

You are implying or inferring - wrongly, that our
winch drivers don't take care.

I didn't write 'crap launch' and I didn't mean 'crap'
launch.

Correct - you didn't, I apologise. I was generalising
with tongue in cheek.

In case you were wondering, I am a complete sod to
winch drivers when
I'm flying. I pull off for overspeeds without a second's
hesitation
I wasn't wondering.......
Hmmm that must be interesting and demoralising for
the winch driver, everytime you hit the wind gradient!
Or are you talking about the last third of the launch,
you didn't make it all that clear?

(many/most pilots just accept them: they shouldn't)
and I don't take
underspeeds either. I invariably refuse to pay for
aborted launches,
and when one winch driver told me I should have pulled
back (ten feet
in the air) to accelerate I formally complained to
his club's safety
officer about his competence and attitude.

Well Ian, hope you never give a 'cr*p (my words not
yours) launch and no one will ever pull off after one
of your polished launches, wouldn't want to put ideas
into your club members heads here I might actually
agree with your last point, especially if the WD was
serious.


If you are happy with those standards, fine.
Again you are inferring that I accept below standard,
complete launches and it isn't fine. My log book shows
over the last 6 months flying, I've had to signal 4
times, for sub standard launches, the WD made good
corrections, yesterday was one of those signals, mainly
because the WD was hot (prob dehydrated) and had been
on the winch for over 3 hours, without a break. He
did the next lau. with his exellent finesse, the one
after was by a new WD (unbeknown to me), who had watched
the lau. I noticed no difference, 1500' 52 - 54KTS
up the launch, yes...... I was happy to accept those
standards.

Maybe it takes your WD's 10 launches to get their eye
in, because they know its you on the other end instructing??


Dave

On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:35:50 UTC, Dave Ruttle
wrote:

Ian Johnston wrote:
I stand completely by what I wrote. Ten or so launches
to do
it reasonably well, twenty to be giving bang on, optimum
speed,
perfect height launches every time.

Define reasonable? If this is above safe climbing speed
and below max launch speed, and the winch driver can
hold steady within 2- 5 knots (on a windy day, through
a wind gradient) up the launch, I would call that reasonable,
in fact pretty good, all our winch drivers will achieve
this well within 10 launches, normally within 2.

That sounds reasonable to me. And yes, if it's an easy day and the
gliders are the same each time it can be easy to get your hand/eye in.
But if there's a big wind gradient and you're launching a lot of
different aircraft, it takes longer.

You are implying or inferring - wrongly, that our
winch drivers don't take care.

Not at all. Sorry. Didn't mean to insult them. It's just that they may
not have te opportunity to develop their skills as well as they might:
winch driving is easy to do reasonably and rather harder to do well or
very well - I just think it's worth (the club) taking the trouble to
arrange things so they can be done very well.


In case you were wondering, I am a complete sod to
winch drivers when
I'm flying. I pull off for overspeeds without a second's
hesitation

I wasn't wondering.......
Hmmm that must be interesting and demoralising for
the winch driver, everytime you hit the wind gradient!

If the glider overspeeds when it goes through a wind gradient, either
the pilot or the winch driver is doing something wrong.

Or are you talking about the last third of the launch,
you didn't make it all that clear?

I check the placard. If I go over the winch launch speed I pull off,
at any phase of the launch. I absolutely do not subscribe to the
belief that it's OK to overspeed - and particularly not at the the
time when the glider is dangling 1500' of cable from it.

Well Ian, hope you never give a 'cr*p (my words not
yours) launch and no one will ever pull off after one
of your polished launches, wouldn't want to put ideas
into your club members heads here

Yup, sometimes I get it wrong. I hope pilots would not hang on to a
dangerously fast or slow winch launch to protect me ego. When I do get
it wrong I apologise, sincerely, and try to do better next time. When
I get it right (this is easier on circuit days) I ask the pilot how
the launch was, pay attention to what they say, and try to get it
better next time.

Maybe it takes your WD's 10 launches to get their eye
in, because they know its you on the other end instructing??


I'm only a winch instructor. When I'm at the other end I want to fly!

Ian

Sorry Ian, a winch driver should be able to get it
right first time. I am very disappointed if I do not
get it right on the first launch. Modern winches have
all sorts of aids like setting the glider type/windspeed
which makes it even easier. Like everything else it
is down to training and practice. I spent most of my
first 5 years gliding sitting on a winch. Sadly winch
drivers are not encouraged to attain the same skill
level as pilots, it is viewed as a chore rather than
something which can be done well.

There is a signal that the pilot can use to indicate
overspeed. If the reaction to this signal is not an
immediate reduction in speed then I agree the launch
should be terminated. The weak link in the cable is
there to protect against overstress and overspeed is
certainly less dangerous than too slow.

However good the winch driver flying through a good
thermal on the launch will vary the ias seen by the
pilot but is normally a very transient effect.

At 07:24 05 July 2005, Ian Johnston wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:35:50 UTC, Dave Ruttle
wrote:

Ian Johnston wrote:
I stand completely by what I wrote. Ten or so launches
to do
it reasonably well, twenty to be giving bang on, optimum
speed,
perfect height launches every time.

Define reasonable? If this is above safe climbing
speed
and below max launch speed, and the winch driver can
hold steady within 2- 5 knots (on a windy day, through
a wind gradient) up the launch, I would call that
reasonable,
in fact pretty good, all our winch drivers will achieve
this well within 10 launches, normally within 2.

That sounds reasonable to me. And yes, if it's an easy
day and the
gliders are the same each time it can be easy to get
your hand/eye in.
But if there's a big wind gradient and you're launching
a lot of
different aircraft, it takes longer.

You are implying or inferring - wrongly, that our
winch drivers don't take care.

Not at all. Sorry. Didn't mean to insult them. It's
just that they may
not have te opportunity to develop their skills as
well as they might:
winch driving is easy to do reasonably and rather harder
to do well or
very well - I just think it's worth (the club) taking
the trouble to
arrange things so they can be done very well.


In case you were wondering, I am a complete sod to
winch drivers when
I'm flying. I pull off for overspeeds without a second's
hesitation

I wasn't wondering.......
Hmmm that must be interesting and demoralising for
the winch driver, everytime you hit the wind gradient!

If the glider overspeeds when it goes through a wind
gradient, either
the pilot or the winch driver is doing something wrong.

Or are you talking about the last third of the launch,
you didn't make it all that clear?

I check the placard. If I go over the winch launch
speed I pull off,
at any phase of the launch. I absolutely do not subscribe
to the
belief that it's OK to overspeed - and particularly
not at the the
time when the glider is dangling 1500' of cable from
it.

Well Ian, hope you never give a 'cr*p (my words not
yours) launch and no one will ever pull off after
one
of your polished launches, wouldn't want to put ideas
into your club members heads here

Yup, sometimes I get it wrong. I hope pilots would
not hang on to a
dangerously fast or slow winch launch to protect me
ego. When I do get
it wrong I apologise, sincerely, and try to do better
next time. When
I get it right (this is easier on circuit days) I ask
the pilot how
the launch was, pay attention to what they say, and
try to get it
better next time.

Maybe it takes your WD's 10 launches to get their
eye
in, because they know its you on the other end instructing??


I'm only a winch instructor. When I'm at the other
end I want to fly!

Ian

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:12:32 UTC, Don Johnstone
wrote:

Sorry Ian, a winch driver should be able to get it
right first time. I am very disappointed if I do not
get it right on the first launch.

Well, I'd hope too, but it depends on the site. Most of my winching
has been on a hill top site where I can't see the glider until it's
about 100' up (humped field) and where the upper winds are very
unpredictable.

There is a signal that the pilot can use to indicate
overspeed. If the reaction to this signal is not an
immediate reduction in speed then I agree the launch
should be terminated.

Nit picking time. The signal is for "too fast" as in "faster than I
want". There is only one signal for overspeed, and it involves the Big
Yellow Knob...

Weak links help protect against local structural damage, but even with
an unbroken weak link there's a lot of additional loading. The weak
link may be twice the AUW of the glider so in the final stages of the
launch the loading on the wings can get to over three times the
unaccelerated flying load. Structurally, this is much more than 3G,
because the additional loading is being applied only to the
non-lifting parts.


Ian

PS Character tests for winch drivers number 1: refusing to launch an
ASH25 on a black link, as the pilots invariably demand, and insisting
on a brown one, as it should be...

I take of with my ASW20 on a black link. And it's not the winch driver who
decides about this.
And yes, I've been a couple of thousand time on the throttle side of the
winch, too.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Ian Johnston" a écrit dans le message de news:
dzZo7CxomoOm-pn2- PS Character tests for winch drivers number 1: refusing
to launch an
ASH25 on a black link, as the pilots invariably demand, and insisting
on a brown one, as it should be...

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:27:40 UTC, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

I take of with my ASW20 on a black link. And it's not the winch driver who
decides about this.

If that is the correct link for the glider, then fine. If it's not,
and I were either launch marshall or winch driver, then I can assure
you that I, personally, would have nothing to do with launching you.

The correct weak link for an ASH-25, as specified by the designer and
manufacturer, is brown, 850dN.

Ian


--

The book says it should be red. And as long as I'm operating my private
ship, it's me who is responsible for which weak link I ask for. Launch
marshals may comment on that, but not decide. Winch drivers are told which
glider is on the other side of the rope, and when they should start to pull.

I have seen (from the ground) quite a couple of critical situations
resulting from fatigued weak link breakage, and I prefer to watch angle of
attack and speed, and pull the knob myself if necessary. And even if the
book doesn't like it, that even works while being launched into thermals or
Mistral rotors.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Ian Johnston" a écrit dans le message de news:
dzZo7CxomoOm-pn2-DhT3lGVC8vpw@localhost...
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:27:40 UTC, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

I take of with my ASW20 on a black link. And it's not the winch driver
who
decides about this.

If that is the correct link for the glider, then fine. If it's not,
and I were either launch marshall or winch driver, then I can assure
you that I, personally, would have nothing to do with launching you.

The correct weak link for an ASH-25, as specified by the designer and
manufacturer, is brown, 850dN.

Ian


--

Ian Johnston writes
PS Character tests for winch drivers number 1: refusing to launch an
ASH25 on a black link, as the pilots invariably demand, and insisting
on a brown one, as it should be...

Winch drivers from our site wouldn't get the chance to refuse. They get
told (and are expected to confirm) glider type and cable (runway or
"remaining") to launch on, but no mention of which link is in use.
Offering and accepting the correct link is (at least in our case) down
to the signaller (who also has responsibility for attaching the cable)
and pilot.

As far as character is concerned, I'm pretty certain the last time I
launched an ASH25 (as signaller, at least) it was on a black link. Or it
would have been if that was what the pilot had asked for. Unless I
absolutely know different, I take it as the pilot's responsibility, in
much the same way as I ask for confirmation from the pilot that their
airbrakes are closed before launch, but don't visually check to ensure
they've physically confirmed they're locked as a result of my asking.

The weak-link bone of contention I've come across most frequently is
with the Pilatus B4, where pilots invariably want the blue link instead
of the BGA mandated white.


--
Bill Gribble
http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk
- Learn from the mistakes of others.
- You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:54:57 UTC, Bill Gribble
wrote:

As far as character is concerned, I'm pretty certain the last time I
launched an ASH25 (as signaller, at least) it was on a black link. Or it
would have been if that was what the pilot had asked for.

Would you launch a K8 on a black link if the pilot requested it? In
the old days, would you have signalled "all out" to the winch driver
if the pilot requested it and despite open brakes? Would you launch a
glider with a faulty back-release if the pilot said "Oh, that's OK,
just launch me."

I don't think /anyone/ on an airfield is entitled to overlook a clear
safety risk of this sort.

Ian