Attracting the kids

On another topic, bagmaker wrote:

Mr Daniels is right on the money, youngsters now have
a new phone every 2 years, a new car every 3 years,
a mortgage no-one can really afford, 3 ipods, a PDA,
$250 sunglasses
and a wardrobe of jeans the cost of which would support
a
small african country.

Do you honestly think they will be enticed into gliding
if
offered an antique 2-33?

And are those honestly the type you want to entice
into gliding? Or are they inclined to get as much
from a club as they can, and contribute as little as
possible?

Another consideration - does your particular club exist
to provide everything for everybody? Or does it, more
like my own, provide the cheapest entry into soaring,
including cross-country trips, and then leave it to
the individuals to move themselves into higher performance
gliders? The second approach is a lot cheaper than
the first.

Jim Beckman

On 15 Aug, 15:00, Jim Beckman wrote:
The second approach is a lot cheaper than the first.
Jim Beckman

And quite plainly does not work!

"Jim Beckman" wrote in message
...
On another topic, bagmaker wrote:

Mr Daniels is right on the money, youngsters now have
a new phone every 2 years, a new car every 3 years,
a mortgage no-one can really afford, 3 ipods, a PDA,
$250 sunglasses
and a wardrobe of jeans the cost of which would support
a
small african country.

Do you honestly think they will be enticed into gliding
if
offered an antique 2-33?

And are those honestly the type you want to entice
into gliding? Or are they inclined to get as much
from a club as they can, and contribute as little as
possible?

Another consideration - does your particular club exist
to provide everything for everybody? Or does it, more
like my own, provide the cheapest entry into soaring,
including cross-country trips, and then leave it to
the individuals to move themselves into higher performance
gliders? The second approach is a lot cheaper than
the first.

Jim Beckman



Let me get this strait, youth is very underrepresented and pilot numbers are
crashing globally and you want to be choosy? Any kid that wants to fly
gliders needs to be encouraged as much as possible, bling or no bling.

Kids, even more than adults, will know the difference between a 2-33 and
anything else. They will want to impress their friends that they are flying
a 'cool' glider. 2-33's are VERY uncool.

The typical 'cheap' club spends heavily on aero tows and cuts corners on
gliders. How dumb is that? If you divert 3/4's of the expenditures on
aero tows to gliders, new glass gets afordable. A winch really earns money
for a club while a tug sucks it down a black hole. Earn money with a winch,
spend it on new gliders.

About the instructor shortage; Instructors like nice gliders too. I know
many instructors, myself included, who will not instruct in 2-33's. It's
too dangerous. Sitting with your spine vertical over an unsprung wheel will
sooner or later result in back injury. Mine is permanently sore. Then
there's the fact that the 2-33 wing blocks your view into turns from back
cockpit. Buy a modern glass trainer and and a winch - instructors will come
out of the woodwork.

Bill Daniels

sniped good points on winch
Earn money with a winch, spend it on new gliders.

I got 2 questions about setting up a winch operation.

1) How the hell do you get qualified to fly off a winch in the US ?

I have been looking for a operation that I can learn to winch
with,
and 1 club in Texas seems the only place that I could do it.

2) How much land do you need to run a winch launch that can get the
glider to 1500-2000 ft altitude ?

Todd Smith
3S

"toad" wrote in message
s.com...
sniped good points on winch
Earn money with a winch, spend it on new gliders.

I got 2 questions about setting up a winch operation.

1) How the hell do you get qualified to fly off a winch in the US ?

I have been looking for a operation that I can learn to winch
with,
and 1 club in Texas seems the only place that I could do it.

There are an increasing number of clubs in the US using winches. The
Southern California area is quite active - see Region 12 newsletter. There
are at least three clubs in Texas using winches - In Houston, Odessa and, I
think, San Antonio. Prescott, AZ uses a winch. I'm sure there are many
more.

2) How much land do you need to run a winch launch that can get the
glider to 1500-2000 ft altitude ?

Typically, you can expect 40% of the starting cable length in no-wind
conditions. A highly optimized launch using Spectra/Dyneema can get 50%.
So, 2000 feet AGL will require a 4000 - 5000 foot runway. Launches into a
wind will be higher.

Gliders with less than 30:1 L/D or those with poorly placed CG hooks will
suffer lower launches - above 30:1 there's not much difference between
gliders. 2-33's with only a nose hook are not well suited for winch launch.

There are a number of winch qualified instructors, myself included, who will
travel to new winch sites to help get them started.

Bill Daniels

1) How the hell do you get qualified to fly off a winch in the US ?

Where in the US are you? There are a couple locations in the Northwest
where you can get Ground Launch Endorsements.

2) How much land do you need to run a winch launch that can get the
glider to 1500-2000 ft altitude ?

Most of my Winch launching was don on about 4000 feet of cable.
Launches were between 800-1200feet. Which is great for training. (Wnd
conditions can vary the alititude siginficantly)

I have done AutoTows out in the desert where about 2 miles and 3000
feet of cable will get you 2000 feet

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Guys,

I live in the Northeast US. To do my personal training at a location
that far away, I would need a commercial type operation where I could
do an intensive course. If you know of any that do that, please post
specific names.

The land required is the biggest problem here in the east. Land is
too expensive and too crowded to get a 5000ft piece of land bought and
turned into an airport. Unless you are a long drive from any large
population centers.


I do believe that for soaring to grow, it needs to be more exciting
(for the newbie) and cheaper.
Todd
3S

On Aug 15, 9:03 am, toad wrote:


I got 2 questions about setting up a winch operation.

1) How the hell do you get qualified to fly off a winch in the US ?

I have been looking for a operation that I can learn to winch
with,
and 1 club in Texas seems the only place that I could do it.

The problem is that insurance precludes 'temporary' memberships in
clubs. However, some clubs have associate and long distance
memberships at reduced rates. Although it's not entirely clear, I
think one club may have lost their 30% SSA discount due to advertising
temporary memberships (AIG sees that type of activity making a club an
FBO) for winch training. There is some talk of possibly winching at
Moriarty on a commercial basis.

Finger Lakes has a long distance and an associate membership. Contact
Tom Roberts and see what's available. (585) 746-1642,

Philadelphia Glider Council is a bit more expensive without the other
membership options, but a bit closer.

2) How much land do you need to run a winch launch that can get the
glider to 1500-2000 ft altitude ?

It depends. I've flown from UK clubs that were located on ridge tops
where a 600-800 foot launch was enough. I've also flown from a ridge
bottom site in Wales where 1500 feet was marginal to reaching the
ridge and returning unless there was at least 20mph wind against the
ridge (assuring ridge lift). Those winch runs were on the order of
2500-3500 feet long. Flat land sites may require more length if the
wind direction is inconsistent. Every 5kts of wind is effectively
several hundred feet of length. Our club site is 5500msl and we get
one or two wind shears and convergence zone migrations during the
day. This sometimes forces us to restage the winch one or twice or
even three times during a long winch day. We have a mile fence to
fence, but generally use about a 4400-4500 foot run, as it takes time
and manpower to push the gliders back to the fence. Staging with the
shorter run, we can land back, hook up, and go. We use a single drum
and can just hang two trainers when there's no lift but minor headwind
and a good crew. If it's soarable, about 85-90% of the launches will
hook a thermal. Some get caught if the sky cycles and land back. If
conditions are good, we've managed 2700agl about three times with our
Blaniks and Grobs. We use 3/16" 7/7 galv aircraft steel wire rope
(read heavy).

If the site will only support launches to 1500-1600agl when conditions
are good due to limited length, then the winch rope media doesn't
matter much. That is, larger diameters of cheaper synthetics might be
used or twisted/solid wire. For example, Finger Lakes is currently
using 5/32" dacron. It's lighter than steel, but the diameter means
more cross section in the wind. Even at the diameter, I suspect it's
a bit weaker than desirable. A New Zealand club uses 10mm
polypropylene, thicker still and stretchy. They've modified their
launch method to use the stretch and recoil and get 1500agl from a
3300ft run. So rope diameter and media don't matter too much if
1500ft is the limit due to length. Solid wire had no stretch recoil,
but requires some special considerations. For example the bending
radius is 60 times the diameter to avoid fatiguing, so larger rollers
are usually needed. It also tends to have a memory from the winding
and recoils as a result. Breaks can result massive snarl ups and a
large safety zone is needed to avoid possible injury. That said,
Prescott Soaring in Arizona uses a 6000ft run and gets lauches to
2000ft and more. Solid wire is cheaper and easy to repair but must be
used with more caution. It works well with reverse pulleys also,
given the space.

7/7 steel wire rope is generally used in 3/16" and 5/32" diameters,
though 5/32" is often hard to source, resulting is higher costs from
shipping. 5000ft of 3/16" weighs over 300lbs and 2-33's don't have
enough elevator to overcome much of the weight and get about the same
height on a 4000ft run as a 5000ft run. Grobs, Larks, and Blaniks can
lift a lot more weight and do better, but generally 1800-2200agl is
achieved when conditions are good. We did use a 1000ft piece of
untreated spectra on the end of our steel wire rope for a few hundred
launches and immediately got 200-400ft higher on each launch. That's
200ft higher with the 2-33, and 300-400ft higher with the Grob, Lark,
and Blanik L-23. That piece of spectra was not like the spectra's in
more general use on winches in Europe and elsewhere. Steel is harder
to work with, but relatively cheap, and somewhat more dangerous do to
it's inertia when moving. Breaks may also cause minor damage to the
winch and to the steel. 7/7 steel wire rope is a twisted product and
under load untwists, so it has some recoil when it breaks under
load. Kinks eventually turn into breaks.

New on the winching scene are Spectra type ropes. They are as strong
or stronger than steel for a given diameter at 1/6 to 1/7 the weight.
They do have low melting points, so winch design must take that into
consideration. They are easily spliced, don't stretch and have no
recoil. They are highly UV tolerant. Overall they are much safer to
use and give better results. They really come into their own on long
winch runs, that is, greater than about 4200ft. The longer the run,
the better. My club is looking at spectra products, but the cost is a
factor. However, 25% higher launches can command a 20% higher launch
charge to offset the cost. But if winch launches approach 50% of an
aero tow cost, that will dampen interest. IMVHO, they shouldn't be
more than 33% of an aero tow. My estimate is that 100% spectra
launches at my site would consistently produce 2200-2500agl launches
in good conditions. Good meaning 5-10kts headwind, temperatures under
85F. Hotter and less wind will reduce things. YMMV depending on
winch design and power.

Bill Daniels and I went to Hinton, OK, in April to help the Soaring
Sooners start winch launching. Many members have ground launch
endorsements and auto tow experience. They bought the old Prescott
Soaring winch and re-engined it and tidied up the winch over last
winter. They bought 6000ft? of a spectra rope, of which we loaded
just over 5000ft on the winch. They launch from a small public
airport (4 power transitions each day while were were there) with a
4000ft paved runway and 500ft overruns to the fence at each end. The
winch can be parked at the fence at either end. The south end could
be used for a launch and landing zone if the wind were out of the
north and the ground dry. So they have a nominally a 4500ft run.
They also have runway lights on the sides and ends. I would never
have presumed to use steel rope there, but with the spectra it was no
problem as it fairly floats in the air and it was easy to fly the rope
and tackle over the end lights and drop it wherever I liked. They are
charging $12 a snap, but the concept is to grow the club with the
cheaper launches and pay for new equipment. To date they report about
350 launches. The FBO also provides aero tow services. They pay him
$1 per winch launch. The second ever launch we did was a 1-26 with a
CG hook and the pilot soared away for two hours. Their 2-33 doesn't
get that high, but manages to soar away. They have a project Blanik
they are restoring, which will give them much better results. Finger
Lakes might be the better option for you for training and observation,
as they also are located at a mixed use airport with reportedly 25
power transitions per day.

Clubs with short runs have generally been unhappy with winching. That
is, where they get 1100-1300agl normally. The Lawler winch was in
common use with the Southern Eagles for many years until they ran into
problems with airport management about the cross runway utilization.
It moved to Chillowhee, TN, for a number of years, where one drum was
fitted with spectra and the other with steel. Their run was short.
But I think they also may have had local issues which resulted in low
effective usage. From there it moved to Memphis. Again, short run,
lowish launches, so it wasn't as popular at it might have been. It's
now at PGC, and PGC sold their old winch to Finger Lakes. PGC has
been working to improve their winch run, but I don't have any reports
on activity from there. Finger Lakes is very happy with their winch
operation.

One thing about a winch is that it can run over uneven ground, so can
be placed well past the end of a runway. I've heard of a European
operation that built a trestle and wheel to put the launch rope over a
fence and another that turned a corner with the launch rope as there
was a dog leg in the runway. To me the perfect setup is a 5000ft run
with 1000ft land back area to the launch point. Next option is extra
width so land backs could parallel the launch run safely, though
gliders would have to be pushed back to the launch point. This isn't
so bad if there's a launch queue. When working with one or two
gliders, it slows the launch rate. If so narrow that you can't launch
until the gliders are retrieved, no one will be very enthused.
Minimum length for long term interest, in my opinion would be 4000ft,
but I'd keep looking for 4500ft. As airports usually have clear zones
off the end of the runways, there may be more options than are readily
apparent.

There is a winchdesign yahoo group with a lot of discussion, much
worth reading.

Regards,

Frank Whiteley

"toad" wrote in message
ups.com...

Guys,

I live in the Northeast US. To do my personal training at a location
that far away, I would need a commercial type operation where I could
do an intensive course. If you know of any that do that, please post
specific names.

The land required is the biggest problem here in the east. Land is
too expensive and too crowded to get a 5000ft piece of land bought and
turned into an airport. Unless you are a long drive from any large
population centers.


I do believe that for soaring to grow, it needs to be more exciting
(for the newbie) and cheaper.
Todd
3S

I think one of the overlooked possibilities for winch sites is underutilized
GA airports. I'm seeing and hearing that single engine GA traffic is WAY
down everywhere. Paying $300 to fill your Cessna's tanks will do that.
Out-of-the-way farm town airports are ghost towns. The EAA Airventure
attendance was down 100,000 compared to last year and many who attended
drove instead of flying. Several clubs operate their winches on GA airports
with no conflicts at all.

Bill Daniels

On Aug 15, 3:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Let me get this strait, youth is very underrepresented and pilot numbers are
crashing globally and you want to be choosy? Any kid that wants to fly
gliders needs to be encouraged as much as possible, bling or no bling.

Spot on.

Kids, even more than adults, will know the difference between a 2-33 and
anything else. They will want to impress their friends that they are flying
a 'cool' glider. 2-33's are VERY uncool.

One point of reference.

My daughter's first experience was an aerotow in a DG500 on a
cloudless
windless November morning. She enjoyed it.

That afternoon we went to the neighbouring club (only 10 km away
just to
see what that was like. To our pleasant surprise (no bookings, arrived
at 3pm)
they winched her up in a K13. That experience hooked her.

Last weekend she told me she rather likes the K13s because she can
see
their innards - there's no "hidden magic".

The coolness is that she is flying an aircraft; some classmates
still have difficulty believing it! Her friends wouldn't know (or
care
about) the difference between a DG1000 and a T21.


Another point of reference.

The K13s benefits do have to be "explained" to adult trial flighters
and potential
members; the DG505 doesn't have that image problem. The club is
solving
that by ordering a couple of PW-6Us to replace a couple of the K13s.

Make of that what you will.


The runway is 1500m, the record winch launch is 2800', a K13 gets
1500'
in still air and 2000' with a "decent" headwind. Crosswinds reduce the
launch
height of course, but 1500' is still normal.

tom gardner