Club Class Nationals

On Sep 22, 7:41*am, Junior Team 2007
wrote:
I support a Club Class Nationals in the US to provide the most
competetive international team and maintain reasonable entry level
costs to racing.

I also support lifting the ban on previous US Team members that
participated in an FAI class, again in hopes of fielding the most
competetive and dedicated team.

Michael Westbrook

"UN"

Well said Mike.

Just in case I did not say this in any of my other voluminous
postings, I ,too, fully support ending the ban on former US Team
members in the FAI classes from being slected for the Club Class Team.
We should send the best pilots, flying club class ships that we can to
every World Championships- Period!

The fact is I would love the opportunity to race Karl Streideck in a
Discus, or Ray Gimmey in a Std Cirrus, or just about any of the other
top pilots in the handicapped, club class. But I can not do this right
now on a level playing field - excpet through the club class concept.

Tim EY

I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
contest held in the Western US.


This is a serious concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. The 6 gliders
in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
to see more regions try this and see if it works.

If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. Boy, it would be nice to see
really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.

Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. Maybe we should be discussing
how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
people to show up at contests, any contests!


John Cochrane

getting more people to show up at contests, any contests!


How can the key to increasing participation be anything other than
this? The big question is "how". To understand the "how" you need to
know "why" folks are not already participating.

Has anyone considered a poll of some kind (letter? email?) to all SSA
members regarding their interest in contest flying? Ask them what's
keeping them from competing. Travel? Expense? Intimidation? Ask them
what type of event would get them to try an organized event. Regional
contest? Local club contest? Exhibition/training contest? Non-scored
fun fly?

If you look at the OLC, there's obviously a lot of pilots with some
semblance of a competitive spirit. Right now there are 1,153 pilots in
North America (923 in the US) with flights logged. Is there no way to
reach out and tap that? If you can interest even a few percent of
them, that's a nice increase in participation.

I'm one of those pilots. I'm a relative newb with two seasons of xc
under my belt. When I think about joining a regional contest, I can
tell you the intimidation factor is quite high. There's a level of
complexity with rules/procedures/traffic/etc that is magnitudes higher
than a typical xc flight from the home airport. It's a big step for
someone who hasn't flown a contest. Especially for those of us in
small clubs. I think maybe you experienced contest guys may have
forgotten what it's like to be in these shoes. Find a way to break
down some of these barriers with a more gradual "stepping-stone"
approach and I think you'll see some new blood.

As Tim said, growing participation (and the club class) has to be
looked at as a longer-term effort. You can't write it off after only a
half-hearted attempt.

On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
contest held in the Western US.

This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
to see more regions try this and see if it works.

If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.

Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
people to show up at contests, any contests!

John Cochran

John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
hear good things to hope for a bright future.

In article
,
rlovinggood wrote:

On Sep 21, 3:19*pm, 5 ugly wrote:
I support a Club Class National Contest in the US based on the list of
"Club Class" gliders and "handicaps" used at the last Club Class WGC.

I agree with Sam.

Please note in the FAI list of Club Class gliders, the H301 Libelle is
no longer included. Looks like they dropped it about three years ago.


Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

Hmm, That .pdf of the 2010 handicaps in the FAI sporting code appendices
looks suspiciously incomplete. Looks like a partial listing of the club
class. Maybe there were further pages that got left off the .pdf that is
posted. I can't imagine that the 301 would be left off while other, much
better performing 15m ships like the ASW-20 are included. Of course,
there were only about 120 or so 301's built and most of them came to the
U.S.

On Sep 22, 5:19*pm, Westbender wrote:
getting more people to show up at contests, any contests!

How can the key to increasing participation be anything other than
this? The big question is "how". To understand the "how" you need to
know "why" folks are not already participating.

Has anyone considered a poll of some kind (letter? email?) to all SSA
members regarding their interest in contest flying? Ask them what's
keeping them from competing. Travel? Expense? Intimidation? Ask them
what type of event would get them to try an organized event. Regional
contest? Local club contest? Exhibition/training contest? Non-scored
fun fly?

If you look at the OLC, there's obviously a lot of pilots with some
semblance of a competitive spirit. Right now there are 1,153 pilots in
North America (923 in the US) with flights logged. Is there no way to
reach out and tap that? If you can interest even a few percent of
them, that's a nice increase in participation.

I'm one of those pilots. I'm a relative newb with two seasons of xc
under my belt. When I think about joining a regional contest, I can
tell you the intimidation factor is quite high. There's a level of
complexity with rules/procedures/traffic/etc that is magnitudes higher
than a typical xc flight from the home airport. It's a big step for
someone who hasn't flown a contest. Especially for those of us in
small clubs. I think maybe you experienced contest guys may have
forgotten what it's like to be in these shoes. Find a way to break
down some of these barriers with a more gradual "stepping-stone"
approach and I think you'll see some new blood.

As Tim said, growing participation (and the club class) has to be
looked at as a longer-term effort. You can't write it off after only a
half-hearted attempt.

How about a "rookie school" at your local regional? Would that help
get your feet wet?
It really is not that hard to get started. I've been teaching racing
beginner classes in Region 2, 3 and once in 5 for almost 20 years. One
of my rookies this year won a day(in a Club class glider) How cool is
that.?
Contact whoever is running your local regional and see if they would
provide. I bet they can find someone to mentor you.
Good Luck
UH

On Sep 22, 5:42*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:





I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
contest held in the Western US.

This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
to see more regions try this and see if it works.

If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.

Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
people to show up at contests, any contests!

John Cochran

John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
hear good things to hope for a bright future.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What exactly was said by "the powers" at this first Cordele Club Class
contest that was so negative to the concept before the first contest
was even finished???

It would be nice to know who exactly is blocking the club class...

Because from my perspective I know of at least 6+ former US Team -
Club Class pilos who would like to fly a US Club Class Nationals. Then
add to it the support you can glean from these exchanges on ras. Then
add the people who are either lurking here or are not involved in this
discussion on ras. And what do we come up with... a much better
potential (because, I admit fully, that is all it is until the first
Club Class Nationals is called) turnout than any recent open class,
and better than even standard class lately.

And there is no support for the class? And further, the pilots are not
of high enough caliber?

Call me crazy, but I would love to slug it out with only names like
Franke, Giltner, Stevenson, Faris, Berry and after a good race these
guys could do pretty well at a WGC.

Tim EY

On Sep 22, 6:42*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:



I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
contest held in the Western US.

This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
to see more regions try this and see if it works.

If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.

Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
people to show up at contests, any contests!

John Cochran

John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
hear good things to hope for a bright future.

Andrzej, it's too bad you felt that way at that meeting. What I
heard
was an interest in the class from the rules committee, and a
willingness
to allow the experiment to continue. Club class as the path to the
WGC
was always going to be a long term issue, and only will happen with
good participation at a number of contests.

The turnout at 2009 Cordele was great, and included people that had
come a long way to participate. This year's contests have had lighter
turnout
all around (the total club plus sports at R5S was less than 17). Even
R4S
currently going on has far less thnt maximum turnout, so that says
to me that people just aren't flying contests this year. Personally,
I didn't fly one because of unfamiliarity with my new plane, but I'll
fly next year.

Where do we go from here? I'm sure if someone was willing and
able to run a national contest in club class (perhaps in tandem
with another low attendance class like World, Open, or even
Standard) the RC would grant a waiver for it. You wouldn't earn
a WGC slot (yet), but you could earn 100 rating points for winning
(which the 1-26 winner does). Good participation would show the
viability of the class.

-- Matt

-- Matt

On Sep 22, 10:59*pm, Tim wrote:
On Sep 22, 5:42*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:





On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
contest held in the Western US.

This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
to see more regions try this and see if it works.

If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.

Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
people to show up at contests, any contests!

John Cochran

John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
hear good things to hope for a bright future.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What exactly was said by "the powers" at this first Cordele Club Class
contest that was so negative to the concept before the first contest
was even finished???

It would be nice to know who exactly is blocking the club class...

Because from my perspective I know of at least 6+ former US Team -
Club Class pilos who would like to fly a US Club Class Nationals. Then
add to it the support you can glean from these exchanges on ras. Then
add the people who are either lurking here or are not involved in this
discussion on ras. And what do we come up with... a much better
potential (because, I admit fully, that is all it is until the first
Club Class Nationals is called) turnout than any recent open class,
and better than even standard class lately.

And there is no support for the class? And further, the pilots are not
of high enough caliber?

Call me crazy, but I would love to slug it out with only names like
Franke, Giltner, Stevenson, Faris, Berry and after a good race these
guys could do pretty well at a WGC.

Tim EY

Tim, I don't think it would be beneficial to the discussion to recount
negatives we heard in Cordele and what was said by "the powers" on
r.a.s shortly after that.

Recently, here on r.a.s, I heard a lot of good words from John C. He
essentially stated that Club Class Nationals can be organized even
next year if someone steps up to it.
I think this would be a great opportunity. Maybe as a part of Sprots
Class Nationals maybe separately.

I sold my SZD-55-1 since I did not believe a change was coming and I
bought an ASG-29 because I could afford it. I still support the Club
Class even though it seems it could be counter productive for me.
Well, principals, conviction are more important than anything else. I
may even borrow a glider to fly in a Club Class contest.

I think someone should take the offer John made here on r.a.s and
organize Club Class Nationals next year.

Let's move beyond arguing...

On Sep 22, 10:59*pm, Tim wrote:
On Sep 22, 5:42*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:





On Sep 22, 4:33*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

I fly Sports Class as my Duo Discus is not competitive in any FAI class
contest held in the Western US.

This is a serious *concern. The only real objection I've heard to club
class is that if we destroy sports class by eating out the middle,
people like yourself have nowhere to go. Same for the sparrowhawk,
silent, and other gliders "below" club class. The R5S club contests
have been really great efforts, but we're still seeing 6 gliders in
sports and 7 in club (2010) which is pretty marginal. *The 6 gliders
in sports is as crucial a number as the 7 in club. It would be great
to see more regions try this and see if it works.

If all we do is subdivide the existing classes, we end up with tiny
contests. The club class advocates are arguing, I think, that changing
the US team selection rules or printing up a separate scoresheet will
bring tens of new pilots out who do not come out to sports contests
now. Maybe. It didn't work for the PW5s. *Boy, it would be nice to see
really big enthusiasm at a regional level, or in response to the past
US team selection restrictions, before jumping into that pond again.

Participation would solve everything. But the trend is the opposite.
Standards seem to draw 10-15, 15 meter seems to draw 25-30, open and
PW5 have been below 10 for a long time. *Maybe we should be discussing
how to merge classes, not to separate them. Or all out getting more
people to show up at contests, any contests!

John Cochran

John, you seem to forget that the first Club Class contest in Cordele
had 17 pilots. I personally did not go for the second contest because
like others I lost hope that the Club Class would ever become reality
in the U.S. During the meeting with "the powers" at Cordele we did not
hear good things to hope for a bright future.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What exactly was said by "the powers" at this first Cordele Club Class
contest that was so negative to the concept before the first contest
was even finished???

It would be nice to know who exactly is blocking the club class...

Because from my perspective I know of at least 6+ former US Team -
Club Class pilos who would like to fly a US Club Class Nationals. Then
add to it the support you can glean from these exchanges on ras. Then
add the people who are either lurking here or are not involved in this
discussion on ras. And what do we come up with... a much better
potential (because, I admit fully, that is all it is until the first
Club Class Nationals is called) turnout than any recent open class,
and better than even standard class lately.

And there is no support for the class? And further, the pilots are not
of high enough caliber?

Call me crazy, but I would love to slug it out with only names like
Franke, Giltner, Stevenson, Faris, Berry and after a good race these
guys could do pretty well at a WGC.

Tim EY

Tim, I don't think it would be beneficial to the discussion to
recount
negatives we heard in Cordele and what was said by "the powers" on
r.a.s shortly after that.
Recently, here on r.a.s, I heard a lot of good words from John C. He
essentially stated that Club Class Nationals can be organized even
next year if someone steps up to it.
I think this would be a great opportunity. Maybe as a part of Sprots
Class Nationals maybe separately.
I sold my SZD-55-1 since I did not believe a change was coming. I
still support the Club
Class even though it seems it could be counter productive for me
considering the glider I own now.
Well, principals, conviction are more important than anything else. I
may even borrow a glider to fly in a Club Class contest.
I think someone should take the offer John made here on r.a.s and
organize Club Class Nationals next year.
Let's move beyond arguing...