Wind/Solar Electrics ???

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:04:21 -0500, Steve Spence
wrote:

wmbjk wrote:
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:35:16 +1100, George Ghio
wrote:


wmbjk wrote:

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:05:32 +1100, George Ghio
wrote:


When a lie becomes industry-accepted terminology then the industry is in
deep ****.


It was never a "lie" except in your ignorant vernacular. And for an
industry in "deep ****" it seems to be doing rather well overall.


"Modified Sq. Wave" is just that. Sine Wave is not stepped.


sigh You might correct your error by listing some popular "sine"
wave inverters, and the number of steps in their "not stepped"
waveforms.

Yes Mildred there really are true sine wave inverters that are not just
a sq. wave with many, many steps.


Another unsupported claim by Mr. Hole Digger. But at least you've
admitted in weasel-speak that some snorf "sine" wave inverters *do*
have stepped waveforms. Would you say that they're manufactured and
sold by liars?


Do your own ****ing search.


I take that to mean that you won't be providing any examples of sine
wave inverters with stepless waveforms. What a shocker.

Wayne

although I find myself in agreement with george (very scary, especially
after his recent voltage driven LED faux pas) that the moniker "Modified
Sine Wave" is a misleading term, and should be changed to "Modified
Square Wave" in order to more accurately reflect the technology,

If only he'd stopped at making that point. But Judge Ghio had to
pontificate about liars, ignorance, and shysters. He just never knows
when to shut up. Anyway, the term is unlikely to ever be changed, and
it's a pretty minor issue IMO.

you
seemed to have gotten under his skin a bit. Congrats.

It's sooooo easy, since he *always* defends his mistakes with more
mistakes. The topper was "never wrong mate". Now *that's* funny.
Apparently the weasel definition of "never" is "most of the time".

Wayne

the moniker "Modified Sine Wave" is a misleading term, and should be
changed to "Modified Square Wave"

I would prefer "stepped sine wave". But I can accept the term "modified
sine wave" as marketing speak that has been on lots of UPS boxes for 20
years. (UPS itself being inaccurate for a standby power source.)

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:30:20 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

the moniker "Modified Sine Wave" is a misleading term, and should be
changed to "Modified Square Wave"

I would prefer "stepped sine wave". But I can accept the term "modified
sine wave" as marketing speak that has been on lots of UPS boxes for 20
years. (UPS itself being inaccurate for a standby power source.)


A chirped-frequency, nanosecond-wide, random-amplitude pulse train is
a modified sine wave.

John

Plonk!

Jim



"George Ghio" wrote in message
...

Do your own ****ing search.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:51:30 -0800, John Larkin wrote:
wrote:

the moniker "Modified Sine Wave" is a misleading term, and should be
changed to "Modified Square Wave"

I would prefer "stepped sine wave". But I can accept the term "modified
sine wave" as marketing speak that has been on lots of UPS boxes for 20
years. (UPS itself being inaccurate for a standby power source.)

A chirped-frequency, nanosecond-wide, random-amplitude pulse train is
a modified sine wave.

John

;-)

Thanks!
Rich

In alt.solar.photovoltaic John Larkin wrote:

A chirped-frequency, nanosecond-wide, random-amplitude pulse train is
a modified sine wave.

I will accept that definition as offered.
Does that preclude having any other valid definitions?

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5

wrote:
the moniker "Modified Sine Wave" is a misleading term, and should be
changed to "Modified Square Wave"


I would prefer "stepped sine wave". But I can accept the term "modified
sine wave" as marketing speak that has been on lots of UPS boxes for 20
years. (UPS itself being inaccurate for a standby power source.)


I believe "stepped sine wave" to be an oxymoron. UPS (uninterruptable
power supply) isn't so wrong, as from the computer's POV, the power
never was interrupted. Of course, we know the difference between
"online" and "backup".

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Steve - How many equal "steps" are necessary for the MSW inverter to be
a sufficiently close approximation to a "rotary" sine wave?

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:33:27 -0800, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

With a small solar panel to keep the continuous load going, not a bad way to
go.

I recently talked to a guy down in Florida, where the sun is more
direct and shows up much more often than here in Michigan. He said a
decent solar powered system to run a medium size (what's medium size?)
house was about $20,000 for the installation.

You can plan on replacing lead acid batteries about every 3 years or
so. Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) are about the same, except the car
manufacturers are claiming much longer life using computer controlled
charging. Time will tell.

Solar panels are still darned expensive. Using a mix of solar and
wind you charge different banks with solid state regulators and
switches.

The inverter only needs to be sized large enough to handle the
expected load. As long as you are not running electronics the wave
form is not much of a problem...except... for radio interference. Some
switching supplies (which are very efficient) are very noisy.

You can get one whale of a nice liquid cooled Honda Generator that
runs quiet and will supply enough juice to run a good size house
continuously. I have a 9,500 Watt continuous generator that will
power our whole house on about a gallon an hour. Maybe a tad less. It
burns way less than the little 4400 watt portable I used to have and
it is *much* quieter. Unfortunately I spend $1,200 and it's not a
quiet Honda. OTOH fortunately I purchased it from Lowe's a couple of
weeks after the Y2K fiasco. People had cleaned them out and were then
returning the "unused" generators. They finally said "No more". Some
of those "unused" generators looked like they'd been sitting out in
salt spray for a couple of months. Mine was more than 50% off and it
was still in the box. It was one of the few that they hadn't sold.
They had a lot of them cheap for a few months. The one store here in
town must have had 50 or more although most of them weren't 9500 watt
units.

Currently Home Depot has some 15KW "home generators" complete with
transfer switch that will do an automatic transfer, as well as
exercising once a week. They'll run on Gas, Natural Gas, or LP gas
and come in a small enclosure that looks like a whole house air
conditioner. I'd like to try one of those, but my wife says I spent
more than enough on what we have and we can drag that heavy cable out
to the generator shed for a lot less than $2,200 :-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com



Jim

Seems running a generator would be simpler and cheaper.



Roger

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 05:00:15 GMT, Don Tuite
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 04:34:35 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

Jim,

Check out http://www.realgoods.com/renew/index.cfm They have a store near
you and also catalog that is very informative on sustainable, off-grid
living and systems.

I've had my reservations about RG ever since they endorsed those
piezoelectric washing-machine tablets.

More than anything though, CE/UL-approved grid-connect inverters (ok
AND EU subsidies, especially in Germany) are helping to increase cell
and panel manufacturing capacity. Which is essential to driving down

There have been several "breakthroughs" that could *potentially* cut
the cost of the solar cells to less than half of current and at the
same time increase the efficiency by a substantial margin.

There were a lot of weasel words in the press release so ... who
knows. IF, how soon, and how much.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
cost. I think off-the-grid is fine for hangars and folks in Idaho
with acres and acres of acres, but grid-connect is where the volume
is.

Don