ATC question

john smith wrote:

In article ,
Newps wrote:


ZikZak wrote:



Do that, but it would be more effective to complain to ATC quality
control.



No such thing. You can call the tower directly and complain but doesn't
sound like it will get you anywhere.


Contact your local FSDO.
They can provide you with a telephone number, address to contact and
describe the situation.

\And that number will be the tower. You haven't gotten anywhere as
other people have already said this has been a problem for years.


If Reading is a contract tower, the FAA has a
quality control program in operation for just these type of incidents.

They have no such thing.

Matt Whiting wrote:

A question for Stephen, Newps or other folks knowledgeable in the finer
points of ATC. A friend of mine flew into Reading, PA last week with
another pilot. Since Reading is a class D airport with no TRSA, but
with radar approach control, they elected to simply call tower directly
6 or so miles out. My friend said that the controller was quite nasty
and told them they had to contact approach first if they wanted to land.
By then they were even closer in, but they called approach who
"informed" them gruffly that they were now 4 miles from the airport and
needed to contact tower "immediately." They then called tower and landed.

My friend is a new private pilot (last December) and both he and the
person flying (a pretty experienced pilot, I believe) were rather taken
aback by this. What authority does a class D tower have to refuse entry
to an airplane that hasn't called approach control? Even a TRSA is
voluntary, so I can't imagine that a non-TRSA, non-class B, non-class C
airport can mandate use of approach control.

Is there some new regulation that I've missed?

Matt

Did you listen to the ATIS prior to contacting the tower? Local arrival
procedures are usually spelled out during this broadcast. Most of the
local Class D's around me don't work in the manner you've described, but
if thats how they work, thats what you do.

As for what authority do they have... pretty much if you want to land at
a Class D, you have to be in communication with them to be in their
airspace. You can be denied entry. The Controller does not have to
justify it, and their decision is final as far that that moment is
concerned.

If you are in communication with them, you have to accept and follow any
directions ATC gives you (91.123 - b), unless you deem it unsafe and
invoke 91.03/declare an emergency. If you choose not to follow their
instructions you can be told to remain clear or exit the class D (or
applicable airspace) and you would be bound to comply.

Its not a new rule.

Dave

In article ,
Newps wrote:

If Reading is a contract tower, the FAA has a
quality control program in operation for just these type of incidents.

They have no such thing.

They do for KOSU.

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

He said the tower controller replied with their N number so I don't
think there is any concern about busting a regulation. Just wondering
what the deal was as we fly out of ELM with is a TRSA and tower never
gives us any crap if we bypass approach. I usually call approach just
to keep them awake, but if I'm just hopping from 7N1 to ELM, I'll
sometimes just call tower as I may barely get high enough for radar
identification before I'm near the class D.

If he didn't bust the reg, there's not much to worry about (even an ASRS is
probably not necessary.)

As far as tower controllers being grumpy on bad days... well... It happens to
everyone...

Dave S wrote:



Did you listen to the ATIS prior to contacting the tower? Local arrival
procedures are usually spelled out during this broadcast. Most of the
local Class D's around me don't work in the manner you've described, but
if thats how they work, thats what you do.


Every single tower has a radar facility to provide approach services,
some more effective than others. Every single tower can, at their
discretion, accept a VFR arrival without first contacting a radar facility.

john smith wrote:

In article ,
Newps wrote:


If Reading is a contract tower, the FAA has a

quality control program in operation for just these type of incidents.

They have no such thing.


They do for KOSU.

That's a local facility, not the FAA.

Judah wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote in
:

He said the tower controller replied with their N number so I don't
think there is any concern about busting a regulation. Just wondering
what the deal was as we fly out of ELM with is a TRSA and tower never
gives us any crap if we bypass approach. I usually call approach just
to keep them awake, but if I'm just hopping from 7N1 to ELM, I'll
sometimes just call tower as I may barely get high enough for radar
identification before I'm near the class D.

If he didn't bust the reg, there's not much to worry about (even an ASRS is
probably not necessary.)

As far as tower controllers being grumpy on bad days... well... It happens to
everyone...

Nobody is worried about it, mostly wondering if there was some new rule
or regulation that we had missed. I'd never heard of such a situation
before. I'd like to fly in there with my crusty old primary instructor.
He didn't care much for controllers and loved to mix it up with the
ones that got testy. :-)

I'm surprised he never got busted, but then he was a DE, FAA safety
counselor and new most of the state and federal aviation folks pretty
well so I'm guessing any complaints that came in got file 13 treatment.

Matt

Dave S wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

A question for Stephen, Newps or other folks knowledgeable in the
finer points of ATC. A friend of mine flew into Reading, PA last week
with another pilot. Since Reading is a class D airport with no TRSA,
but with radar approach control, they elected to simply call tower
directly 6 or so miles out. My friend said that the controller was
quite nasty and told them they had to contact approach first if they
wanted to land. By then they were even closer in, but they called
approach who "informed" them gruffly that they were now 4 miles from
the airport and needed to contact tower "immediately." They then
called tower and landed.

My friend is a new private pilot (last December) and both he and the
person flying (a pretty experienced pilot, I believe) were rather
taken aback by this. What authority does a class D tower have to
refuse entry to an airplane that hasn't called approach control? Even
a TRSA is voluntary, so I can't imagine that a non-TRSA, non-class B,
non-class C airport can mandate use of approach control.

Is there some new regulation that I've missed?

Matt

Did you listen to the ATIS prior to contacting the tower? Local arrival
procedures are usually spelled out during this broadcast. Most of the
local Class D's around me don't work in the manner you've described, but
if thats how they work, thats what you do.

I wasn't flying so I don't know if they did or not.


As for what authority do they have... pretty much if you want to land at
a Class D, you have to be in communication with them to be in their
airspace. You can be denied entry. The Controller does not have to
justify it, and their decision is final as far that that moment is
concerned.

If you are in communication with them, you have to accept and follow any
directions ATC gives you (91.123 - b), unless you deem it unsafe and
invoke 91.03/declare an emergency. If you choose not to follow their
instructions you can be told to remain clear or exit the class D (or
applicable airspace) and you would be bound to comply.

Its not a new rule.

I find it pretty hard to believe that a controller can decide locally
who to provide service to or not. The first time this happens to me,
I'll be talking with my representative and senators. Folks need to
remember who is the customer and who is paying the salaries.

Matt

Newps wrote:


Dave S wrote:



Did you listen to the ATIS prior to contacting the tower? Local
arrival procedures are usually spelled out during this broadcast. Most
of the local Class D's around me don't work in the manner you've
described, but if thats how they work, thats what you do.


Every single tower has a radar facility to provide approach services,
some more effective than others. Every single tower can, at their
discretion, accept a VFR arrival without first contacting a radar facility.


Can they, at their discretion, decide to refuse service to whomever they
choose? What if they don't like blue and white airplanes, can they just
decide not to let any blue and white airplanes land?

Matt

I find it pretty hard to believe that a controller can decide locally
who to provide service to or not. The first time this happens to me,
I'll be talking with my representative and senators. Folks need to
remember who is the customer and who is paying the salaries.

Matt

It has not been proven that the controller made a unilateral decision
here. If they have an operating practice that says "contact approach
first" they can fall back on that practice and choose not to make an
"exception". Newps is right. Any local controller COULD accept a pop up.
But are they required to? Again.. if the arrival procedures are
described on the ATIS, your friend has nobody to be miffed at but
himself, for not being able to "make himself aware of all pertinent
information regarding his flight".

I've known of two separate instances in my short stint in flying where
someone didn't want to talk to approach, and was directed to contact
approach for sequencing. One was into Savannah, the other Beaumont.
Neither was the exact type of airport described by the original poster,
but that was how they operated.

I remember explicitly Savannah approach telling someone who was VFR
inbound, who didn't want to take sequencing vectors VFR and was going to
go "around" to tower "Sir, if you are landing at Savannah, you will be
going through me" Given the exchange, that actually was pretty direct
and effective.

Dave
Not an ATC guy, but I did sleep in a holiday inn express once..